Monthly Archives: August 2013

Richard Carrier: Inept Idiot or Ignorant Simpleton?

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This train wreck brought to you by…

Richard Carrier has aspired to have one of his letters to Penthouse printed for years. As of late he has become frustrated with the ongoing rejections he has received. Since Dick can’t get Penthouse to print him, his he posted this- Michael Shermer: Rapist or Sleaze?

Here is one portion-

Scenario A: You finally get to meet a big celebrity, for the first time, someone you really love and admire, and you’re at a party having drinks together, sitting at a table. He shows a lot of interest in you, asks you lots of questions, listens intently. Your conversation is so animated, in fact, his focus on you so engaging, that you don’t even notice that he keeps filling your wine glass, and you don’t realize how much you’ve had.
Then you start to feel you must have drunk too much, your vision is blurring and you feel a little dizzy. He shows concern, and offers to take you to your room. You get up and almost fall, you are having difficulty keeping upright. He supports you, and in his arms walks you to the elevator, and your room. You are really out of it and at this point can barely think straight and can’t navigate on your own. You have difficulty walking. At first you aren’t even sure it was your room he took you to.
He gets you to the bed and your head is swimming. You’re struggling not to pass out. You can’t speak coherently. He starts kissing and fondling you, then undressing you, then…everything else. You are too drunk to resist. And you are too surprised to speak. You just think to yourself, in a bit of shock… Oh. Okay. So this is happening. You never asked for it, and he never asked you if you did. It wasn’t even a subject you’d ever discussed or hinted at. And once it’s begun you aren’t sure how to stop it. You aren’t even thinking clearly enough to reason that out. You say something, but your speech is so slurred even you aren’t sure what you said. And before you get any idea of what to do, it’s over, and he leaves.
You lay there in the bed, stunned. The shock of what happened has sobered you up a little. You feel violated. You gather yourself up. You start crying. You finally get your head together and stumble out to report what just happened, visibly shaken as many witnesses can verify.

Why Dick feels like he needs to present this example, I don’t know. Does pretending something actually happened make it more true? Sure this kind of thing has happened but what does Richard Carrier’s imagined version have to do with actual events? An example maybe? An example of how Richard Carrier imagines something he never witnessed happened? The best reason I can come up with is his bitterness over the Penthouse rejection letters. Or maybe he is trying to jump on the same conjecture train PZ Myers had been riding up and down the rails.

 

Before I get too far ahead let’s look at some of Dick’s points, such as-

We should know the difference between anonymous authorship and unnamed sources

I agree, yes we should know the difference. Most people do. The problem here is lots of people do not trust PZ Myers cause he has taken his credibility and used it like a roll of toilet paper. He wipes his ass with it and then expects us to take it from him and say it smells like roses. It doesn’t smell like roses and I seriously doubt it ever will. If Dick Carrier can take toilet paper PZ has used, hold it to his nose, take a whiff of it, and have the same sensation as bringing his wife flowers on Valentines Day that’s nice for him. Most of what PZ says that isn’t directly related to his profession lacks credibility. I’m not saying everything he says is a lie but he has made mistakes when making claims about people’s actions, their character, and words in the past. PZ has never even shown an ability to acknowledge when he is wrong. Anyone who says that PZ has proven to be trustworthy and/or a reliable source in the past is clearly biased, tragically uninformed,  or just plain stupid. I’m sorry but there really is no other explanation.

Dick goes on-

We should also know the difference between criminal and civil standards of judgment; and between investigations and findings reached in a court to enforce public laws, and investigations and findings reached in private companies (for-profit and nonprofit, schools and hospitals, hotels and bars, banks and grocery stores) to enforce their own private conduct policies (e.g., you don’t have to be convicted in court to be banned from a campus for violating a school conduct policy, nor do you have to break any law for that, either).

First of all PZ Myers blog is not a civil court, a company, a school, or any other organization that has any standing. FTB is a bunch of people who know how to hit buttons on a keyboard. I guess Dick is okay with any group of people making any claim they think is credible about anyone as long as they say it is true. There is no need to hear all sides or get any details. There is no need to question or get the opinion of people who have no bias and are not involved in the matter. What  the hell do we even need lawyers for?  Someone says they were victimized, the accuser is known by a biologist with a popular blog, some other people say they have heard the same gossip,  the accused is guilty, case closed.

Does Dick think that the same method used by PZ to accuse Shermer is also used by companies and schools across the country to decide if someone was actually stealing  or if they actually cheated on a test? Well if that is true he should get out of the house more often. Sure an accusation can begin an investigation but it should be reported to responsible people who can check into it’s validity before punishing the accused. No every instance does not have to be decided in a courthouse but most reputable organizations follow a process that is similar to the one used by the court system because it is a good model. For Dick to gloss over that fact gives the impression he omitting important aspects in order to better support his bias.

Richard Carrier (Dick for short) then goes through and shares his fantasies about Michael Shermer’s sexual experiences.(see above) I think it’s safe to say that Dick Carrier has no idea if what he is writing is even remotely close to the truth. Unless he can travel back in time and make himself invisible so he can witness the events he wasn’t there so it all comes down to- A bunch of shit. Dick can write fictional stories. We can put him up there with other fictional writers like say…. L Ron Hubbard. Very impressive but not useful.

 

Dick continues on-

 But the preponderance of evidence (a civil court burden, whereby a claim need only have a better than 50% chance of being true, so even just a 50.1% chance of being true would win a case) is enough for me to conclude that the general picture is probably true: Shermer pursues sex with women a lot, both one-night stands and ongoing affairs, and he has often enough done so without telling his wife or his various girlfriends. His recent attempt to compel PZ Myers to retract his report of what a witness told him appeared to deny even this (that Shermer has lots of consensual trysts and affairs), which I think is disingenuous at this point.

At this point I think it is fair to ask Dick to make up his mind. Is he going to treat this as if PZ’s blog is a court of law (civil or otherwise) or is he going to claim that accepted legal procedures do not apply because it is not a court? You can’t have it both ways Dick. If we are to consider the comparison used above then it is important to note that in a civil case ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUE ARE HEARD BEFORE ANY JUDGEMENT.

How hard is it to understand? Richard Carrier is educated isn’t he? He is supposed to be intelligent. I’m sorry but this application of logic when it fits what you want to believe is exactly like the behavior of religious people. In their day to day life they apply a certain logic to everything they do because if they didn’t it would be almost impossible to function. When they consider religion a entirely different set of rules come into play because religion is different and isn’t subject to the kind of logic that allows you to function and stay alive in the world you actually live in.  Richard Carrier, PZ Myers, and all the other people who are using this emotional and/or flawed formula are doing the same thing.

I don’t know what the fuck has happened to Dick and PZ and all the other morons who want to try and convince us there is a public process which has no connection to the court system and it should be used to pronounce judgement on people accused of improper behavior or crimes. Sure there is a court of public opinion but people should be responsible when voicing their opinion.

Popular public personalities/figures should be aware that their opinion carries weight. When Jenny Mcarthy said

 The idea that vaccines are a primary cause of autism is not as crackpot as some might wish.

I would assume she thought she was telling the truth. She was incorrect though, the idea was based on completely useless or just plain made-up data. The doctor who had said there was a link was a crackpot. Jenny had given him credibility and we all know the damage that has been done due to her irresponsible behavior. She said it in an attempt to protect children much in the way PZ, Dick and others are claiming to be protecting women from rape. But at what cost? No matter how they want to twist and turn and selectively use examples the bottom line is they are accusing a man of breaking a serious law and they have portrayed him as guilty by way of hearsay, without allowing him to answer his accuser. In fact without allowing him to answer at all. Now that the accusation and presumption of guilt have been made he can not answer without legal council. He would be an idiot to do so, especially considering the types of buffoons he is dealing with here. We all want to know the truth but PZ the Clown has made that even more difficult by acting like a twit.

I’d really like anyone who also chooses to ride the PZ Myers conjecture express to imagine if it was them. Imagine if this was the typical process we used to find innocence /guilt. Even the court of public opinion doles out punishment. Punishment should be deserved. Whether it is deserved should depend  on fair unbiased people learning as much factual information about the issue as possible and listening to all sides in order to form and educated opinion about the how events occurred.

redflag

There is a big red flag here. This red flag has popped up time and time again when you read some posts at FTB. There is no link to an opposite point of view. If the writers were honest, thought they had a sound argument, and respected their readers enough to allow them to come to their own conclusions after hearing all sides, then they would give the reader a way to find that information. Whenever you don’t find a link to the original information or the opposing view being criticized, unless it is unavailable, then that is a red flag. This is an important point. There is usually a reason the other side isn’t being represented in some form and that reason is almost never good.

Divide and Conquer?

 


split

   I keep thinking PZ Myers will get it. One morning he will wake up, look in the mirror and have a sudden epiphany. He will finally realize that he doesn’t know everything and it’s been obvious to everyone the entire time. The hypocrisy he has displayed will give him a feeling of embarrassment that washes over him as if he had jumped into a pool of ice water. The character assassinations he has been guilty of will give him the same feeling of regret one would have after waking up naked on a park bench after a night of drinking. The name calling would cause him to imagine his dignity falling out of his body onto the floor wiggling around as if a pair of hands were grasping it and choking it to death until it withered into what resembled a dried up leaf and blew away. All the lies, bullshit, and excuses that seemed so clever at the time now are now revealed to him for what they really were, childish attempts to cover up behavior that should have been unthinkable. Suddenly he sees through the eyes of all the reasonable, rational people of the world and comes to the conclusion it is far past the time to shut the fuck up.

I couldn’t be more mistaken. Instead he offers this-This is not an update

Remember when Dick Carrier called for people to pick which side they wanted to be on? You were either A+ or you were less than A+. Dick stopped just short of calling for fighting in the streets. It took an overwhelming rejection of Dick and his dickish ideas on a youtube video of him at the 2013 American Atheist convention to drive the point home. It wasn’t easy to convince Dick he could be wrong. It is possible he is still convinced it’s all a bad dream and is just playing along until he wakes up and gets a chance to kick some non A+ ass.

Despite the public voting down the A+ rhetoric and ignoring calls to actively divide the atheist/skeptic community the first time around, PZ thinks it’s a good idea to make that call once again. Let me make sure you all understand what my point is- PZ Myers is actively calling for people to choose sides on a issue that has become the biggest dividing force among atheist/skeptic activists. Does anyone think this is a good suggestion? What kind of example are we if we can’t get along?

What rational, sane person would do this? What intelligent, educated adult makes such a childish public demand of people? In case PZ doesn’t know it there were already enough sides before he tried to force his ideology on all of us and condemn anyone who doesn’t agree completely with whatever he tells them to.

Sexual harassment? PZ says it is bad, bad, bad! The predatory habits of old white men must be stopped! They are running rampant and harassing women constantly! Oh, unless they do this…this is okay as long as your name is PZ.

In this case it was just a “joke”. Or the subject was reproduction, how else could PZ possibly make his point except by suggesting his volunteer make her way to his hotel room?

News flash PZ. I don’t think there is a company in the country that would be okay with the behavior demonstrated here and I’m not even going to mention the suggestion you make to the woman introducing you that she “dance” then you tell her to “go away”.  You dismiss her because you “have work to do”. The man has work to do. it doesn’t matter if it is a joke or not PZ it can still be harassment. If someone in the audience finds it offensive, it is harassment.

Before you keep on harping about people picking sides and warning them about people who may or may not be guilty of harassing women. You need to check your own behavior. You never even showed enough awareness to admit you were guilty of making a bad call when propositioning a woman on a stage in front of an entire conference. You think gossip is enough to say whatever you want about someone else cause we aren’t in a court of law. But when you are on video clearly behaving in a fashion just as bad as anyone you have been critical of if not worse it is no big deal. Who the fuck convinced you that you are better than anyone else? What makes your intentions pure but anyone else’s sinister? Because you were doing it in plain sight you couldn’t have had any improper intent?  Criminals have been known to claim that the best way to commit a crime is “in plain sight”  cause no one expects it and a great defense is “why would I commit a crime in plain sight? I’m not stupid”

Or we can follow the example PZ sets when it comes to compassion for rape victims. What kind of cold bastard would make a joke of rape? Well funny you asked, this kind.

I’m not sure what weak excuse PZ came up with for this crap but if I had to guess…I’d say…it was.. “Reap Paden is a ranting asshole”  that’s a logic embraced by “the horde of morons”. The screeching socially dysfunctional commenters  that reside in the Pharyngula basement will constantly dismiss any valid points because they don’t like the person making those points.

If any of those little feeble minded horders is reading this I’d like to inform them that calling people names, telling people to kill themselves, or using “shut the fuck up and go away”  to support your point doesn’t make your point any stronger and it doesn’t make you tough or intimidating. The Pharyngula comment section isn’t quite the model of a tough intelligent place where smart people don’t take any shit that you seem to see it as. What kind of people feel like they need to attack EVERY SINGLE instance of a person saying anything that doesn’t fit into your bubble? What is so hard about leaving people alone to voice their differing opinion and letting the reader make up their own mind?  The way you all give each other “virtual high fives” as you squash any and every contrasting opinion makes me embarrassed for you. The way you think it is an achievement when you verbally abuse another person for simply not sharing your point of view is a very sad commentary on your life. The way you belittle people who point out your petty and juvenile behavior is pitiful. You are like drunks who are trying to make fun of the guy who called you an alcoholic but you have trouble getting the words out due to the shakes. You end up laughing at your own joke but no one else could understand what the fuck you were saying so they just walk away slowly as you continue to try and high five each other and mumble insults. yet you still consider yourself some kind of force or threat. The only thing you are a threat to is yourselves. I can say that there has never been one single instance of my feeling anything close to threatened by any of ya. It’s laughable.

brokenA

 I’m not gonna pick a “side” the suggestion sounds childish, it’s just more from the playground bully. Even though I’ve come to expect as much from PZ I still have an optimistic hope for an epiphany.

 

Who gets the bill ?

6thamedment

I’m  watching the debate over the legal action that could be taken over PZ Myers’ blog post about Michael Shermer being guilty of what can be defined as rape. I have been looking into the  laws regarding libel and defamation. My interpretation of the law makes me think Shermer already has a case not only proving defamation but also damages resulting from it.But….

One comment on my last blog post got me thinking


HJ Hornbeck
Submitted on 2013/08/14 at 1:30 pm

I take it none of you have read the complaint, then? It claims to have strong evidence that Myers knew the allegations are false, but then makes some trivially inaccurate statements such as:

1. Carrie Poppy is a member of FtB.
2. The “Grenade” thread is the most popular thread on Pharyngula.

It reads as boilerplate legal intimidation, with no substance behind it. Why didn’t they reveal their proof that the allegations are false, right then and there? Why are they stringing us out? This complaint looks groundless, to a skeptical eye.

Groundless? I’m not sure if I would describe it like that. I will say if Shermer has no recourse on something like what PZ has posted then we have a bigger issue to consider. This will have/has had a negative effect on Michael Shermer’s reputation. No matter what happens now a level of damage has been done. Its not unreasonable to think it will effect his income also and that should not be allowed to happen. We have a court system and people have a right to defend themselves when accused of a crime. PZ is attempting to circumvent that system. All of us should hope that is not allowed to happen not only for Michael Shermer but for our own sake. Because this type of thing could happen to anyone whether you are smart enough to realize it or not.

PZ Myers should be ashamed. How can he not see what effect his actions have had? There is a clear pattern he has established. When PZ can not win a debate or when he is too lazy to even try he attacks a person’s character. This is no better than the Christian who starts calling you a satanist or sinner when they find out you don’t believe in god or the anti vaxer who calls you a retard because you don’t believe their theory. In fact it is far worse. I don’t care if someone calls me an asshole or even a ranting asshole. To be honest I probably am on occasion at least from the perspective of some people. There are people who think differently than me, I can deal with that. When someone calls me a racist then they are accusing me of judging someone based purely on the way they were born. That’s not an accurate description of my character and anyone who knows me will attest to that. While that is a cheap shot it isn’t really accusing someone of being guilty of a crime in most cases.

Up until recently that was the level PZ Myers had sunk to. He had been doing it to creationists for years and shame on us for laughing at the clown while he performed his circus act on people who may have deserved it in some cases but as it turns out we encouraged bad habits.

Now those bad habits have come back to bite us on the ass. Anyone who thinks this bullshit PZ has pulled on Shermer is okay because “he can handle it” due to his popularity or because he is a white male is living in a fantasy land. Plenty of lives, all kinds of lives, have been ruined by unfounded allegations just like PZ has made about Shermer.

Anyone who is comfortable with PZ making allegations of someone being guilty of rape the way he has needs to consider a few things. Are false accusations ever made against people? Is there anyone who hasn’t been accused of doing something they did not do? How did it make you feel? Did the person who accused you think they had evidence that proved you were guilty? What if you were never allowed to defend yourself or explain the circumstances involved?

If it is not made clear that we support due process and frown on individuals taking such matters into their own hands then we will likely see this happen again in the future. I even did the work for you so feel free to cut and paste. Maybe if we took a couple minutes to email PZ  about our concerns it would be helpful.

Attention PZ Myers- We have a Bill of Rights for a reason. You are not above the law of the land. There are far more responsible ways you could have dealt with the issue involving Mr Shermer and been fair to all parties. You have not been elected to any position that allows you to cast judgement as to whether others are guilty of any crime. Your failure to realize your blunder even in the face of so much outcry against it only proves my point that you are not competent enough to act responsibly or to realize when the circumstances require the assistance of people experienced in such matters. You obviously have no such experience or there would be no need for threat of legal action against you. Your actions are an abuse of the right to free speech and could be compared to shouting “fire!” in a crowded theater. In other words your actions have the potential to harm others. Please read with the documents this country was founded on and familiarize yourself with the basic rights we enjoy in this country. If you could also refrain from abusing those rights in the future it would be helpful on many levels. There has been enough conflict among a small portion of  atheists/skeptics up to this point and if you could attempt to address matters that concern you in responsible ways that will minimize un-needed dramatic effect it would set a good example for others. An effort to refrain from personal attacks on others could also be beneficial to those involved the atheist/skeptical “community”.

Thanks in advance

Signed-

Reasonable People 

Libelous


PZLIBELOUS

 Well seems that wishes do come true. After PZ Myers took it upon himself to say some nasty things about Michael Shermer. Mr Shermer answered PZ, well he didn’t actually answer himself, his lawyers did though. And since PZ has removed the post from his blog I figured I would make sure people get a chance to observe the smack he received upside the head. So here you go. …

shermerslawyerletter
shermer1


shermer2shermer3

shermer4

 

shermer6

 

Gotta like that. Will PZ learn anything from this? Probably not and you can’t teach common sense so we will probably see more stupid and/or irresponsible blabber coming from PZ in the future but in this case he got called on it. I’m glad Michael Shermer took care of business in an adult manner. Pity PZ can’t follow his example.

The Dishonorable PZ Myers

pzjudge

If all judges were like PZ Myers we would all be screwed

Not too long ago I wrote about how PZ Myers had removed the list he used to slander/libel people who had made him feel stupid/wrong/childish called “the dungeon”

I wondered if PZ had learned anything. Had he realized why his dungeon was unfair to people? Was he going to keep the focus of the argument on ideas instead of personal attacks or character assassination? It doesn’t seem he has learned much, in fact he has sunk to a new low.

PZ wrote a post titled What do you do when someone pulls the pin and hands you a grenade?

In that post he talks about accusations against Michael Shermer. Someone had contacted PZ and told a story. PZ takes it upon himself to present this information to the public along with his own feelings (bias). PZ acts as if this is a huge burden on his part and he had to give great thought to whether he was going to post the accusations or not.

Then he puts on his suit of armor, declares himself a noble knight and posts the information.

PZ has no idea if the accusations are true, none. Despite that he paints a picture of a poor victim who has no choice but to turn to PZ Myers and hope he can save anyone else from being a victim of something no one knows really happened.

I’m not saying that the person who contacted PZ is lying. I am saying PZ Myers knows jack shit about the situation. To him it is nothing more than gossip. I guess it is now PZ Myers duty to repeat anything he hears like a parrot never giving any real thought to whether it is true or not?

PZ tries to rationalize his behavior by saying he knows the person who contacted him. Big fucking deal. Just because PZ knows someone it does not make anything they say more or less true than if they were unknown to him. News flash PZ – Even people you know sometimes lie and sometimes the memories people have of an event are not completely accurate.

If I take into account the history PZ has of lying about people and repeating any accusations against others by his friends as factual then his credibility is less than zero. PZ is a known liar, he lied about me so I know this is a fact.

PZ acts like he is a judge and jury. At one point he says-

She’s also afraid that the person who assaulted her before could try to hurt her again.

And he follows with-

Do I stand up for the one who has no recourse, no way out, no other option to help others, or do I shelter the powerful big name guy from an accusation I can’t personally vouch for, except to say that I know the author, and that she’s not trying to acquire notoriety

Does that sound like an unbiased opinion? Who the fuck does PZ Myers think he is? Why does he insist on acting like he is still in high school? Over and over again he behaves in ways that you would expect to see when dealing with a 15 year old kid. His answer to critics is to lie, deny or name call. He dismisses people as assholes or morons and acts as if he is so superior that he need not even consider the opinions of those people, they are just stupid.

pzjury

A jury of PZ Myers peers…

PZ is a classic example of someone who is too stupid to understand how dumb he is. He just floats along in a bubble of conceit casting judgement on people oblivious to the immature irresponsible idiocy he is spreading.

What if someone comes to PZ with accusations of child molestation against someone else? I guess we can count on PZ to repeat anything he hears about anyone as long as he judges the person making the accusation as credible.

I’d love to know if PZ Myers ever considered maybe he is wrong about the credibility of the person who contacted him. What if it is all wrong and the story is nothing like it was presented to him? Then what?

Don’t we have a justice system where people are innocent until proven guilty? There is a reason that system is in place. PZ Myers actions are what you get when you allow just any egotistical moron to cast judgement on others.

If what he has presented is true then it should be presented in public so the truth is known but reaching the truth takes much much more than PZ Myers uninformed opinion.

A responsible adult would have at least contacted Shermer and got the other side of the story. PZ didn’t even try. Yea that’s just great a lazy, biased, ignorant dolt is dealing out justice just what we need. Thanks PZ maybe you should run for a position as judge in MN.

If anything proves that atheism does not make you anything except a person who does not believe in god/gods, PZ does. He has proven that when he claimed he was no longer a skeptic it was the complete truth.

PZ, you have done enough damage to other people as well as yourself, please shut up. Not because I don’t want to hear another point of view but because I want to hear a informed, well thought out, unbiased point of view. You are not that by a long shot.

Of course when surrounded by his “horde” PZ thinks that the number of people who agree with him indicates whether he is wrong/right. Since most of the horde are mental midgets who toss out barbs of contempt and overwhelm any dissent with a flood of asininity there is little of value they provide to any debate. Their sole purpose seems to be to reinforce whatever PZ posts and to defend him even when faced with blatant examples of his hypocrisy.

Again remember I am not addressing whether the accusations PZ presented to the public are true/false. I am calling on PZ Myers to act like a responsible adult. I’m embarrassed for PZ that he has become so convinced of his inability to be be wrong that he is destroying other people’s lives. He could at least refrain from harming others.

PZ talks about how it will harm his reputation because he “outed” a big name skeptic. What is going to hurt him is the manner in  which he did so. Again PZ just isn’t bright enough to understand this fact. It’s no wonder he feels like other are always misunderstanding him he has no idea why a lot of things happen, the world is too complicated for him maybe.

What should now happen is people should inform PZ that what he did was wrong and why (for what good that will do). Hopefully he sees some legal action on behalf of Mr Shermer. David Silverman should go on public record and explain to PZ how wonderful he could be if he would just stop with “the shit”. Considering how David jumped on Justin Vacula for mistakenly posting an address I wonder how he feels about publicly accusing and basically blaming a person for rape without due process?

In case you hadn’t noticed I did try to stay out of the bullshit. I gave PZ credit for removal of the dungeon and then I shut my mouth. What happens when you leave people like PZ alone? SEE ABOVE.

That is why I am not going to just ignore him. PZ has the potential to be very dangerous to others due to his outright stupidity and over inflated ego. He can not just be left alone.

pzwitch