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Richard Carrier: Inept Idiot or Ignorant Simpleton?

This train wreck brought to you by...

This train wreck brought to you by…

Richard Carrier has aspired to have one of his letters to Penthouse printed for years. As of late he has become frustrated with the ongoing rejections he has received. Since Dick can’t get Penthouse to print him, his he posted this- Michael Shermer: Rapist or Sleaze?

Here is one portion-

Scenario A: You finally get to meet a big celebrity, for the first time, someone you really love and admire, and you’re at a party having drinks together, sitting at a table. He shows a lot of interest in you, asks you lots of questions, listens intently. Your conversation is so animated, in fact, his focus on you so engaging, that you don’t even notice that he keeps filling your wine glass, and you don’t realize how much you’ve had.
Then you start to feel you must have drunk too much, your vision is blurring and you feel a little dizzy. He shows concern, and offers to take you to your room. You get up and almost fall, you are having difficulty keeping upright. He supports you, and in his arms walks you to the elevator, and your room. You are really out of it and at this point can barely think straight and can’t navigate on your own. You have difficulty walking. At first you aren’t even sure it was your room he took you to.
He gets you to the bed and your head is swimming. You’re struggling not to pass out. You can’t speak coherently. He starts kissing and fondling you, then undressing you, then…everything else. You are too drunk to resist. And you are too surprised to speak. You just think to yourself, in a bit of shock… Oh. Okay. So this is happening. You never asked for it, and he never asked you if you did. It wasn’t even a subject you’d ever discussed or hinted at. And once it’s begun you aren’t sure how to stop it. You aren’t even thinking clearly enough to reason that out. You say something, but your speech is so slurred even you aren’t sure what you said. And before you get any idea of what to do, it’s over, and he leaves.
You lay there in the bed, stunned. The shock of what happened has sobered you up a little. You feel violated. You gather yourself up. You start crying. You finally get your head together and stumble out to report what just happened, visibly shaken as many witnesses can verify.

Why Dick feels like he needs to present this example, I don’t know. Does pretending something actually happened make it more true? Sure this kind of thing has happened but what does Richard Carrier’s imagined version have to do with actual events? An example maybe? An example of how Richard Carrier imagines something he never witnessed happened? The best reason I can come up with is his bitterness over the Penthouse rejection letters. Or maybe he is trying to jump on the same conjecture train PZ Myers had been riding up and down the rails.


Before I get too far ahead let’s look at some of Dick’s points, such as-

We should know the difference between anonymous authorship and unnamed sources

I agree, yes we should know the difference. Most people do. The problem here is lots of people do not trust PZ Myers cause he has taken his credibility and used it like a roll of toilet paper. He wipes his ass with it and then expects us to take it from him and say it smells like roses. It doesn’t smell like roses and I seriously doubt it ever will. If Dick Carrier can take toilet paper PZ has used, hold it to his nose, take a whiff of it, and have the same sensation as bringing his wife flowers on Valentines Day that’s nice for him. Most of what PZ says that isn’t directly related to his profession lacks credibility. I’m not saying everything he says is a lie but he has made mistakes when making claims about people’s actions, their character, and words in the past. PZ has never even shown an ability to acknowledge when he is wrong. Anyone who says that PZ has proven to be trustworthy and/or a reliable source in the past is clearly biased, tragically uninformed,  or just plain stupid. I’m sorry but there really is no other explanation.

Dick goes on-

We should also know the difference between criminal and civil standards of judgment; and between investigations and findings reached in a court to enforce public laws, and investigations and findings reached in private companies (for-profit and nonprofit, schools and hospitals, hotels and bars, banks and grocery stores) to enforce their own private conduct policies (e.g., you don’t have to be convicted in court to be banned from a campus for violating a school conduct policy, nor do you have to break any law for that, either).

First of all PZ Myers blog is not a civil court, a company, a school, or any other organization that has any standing. FTB is a bunch of people who know how to hit buttons on a keyboard. I guess Dick is okay with any group of people making any claim they think is credible about anyone as long as they say it is true. There is no need to hear all sides or get any details. There is no need to question or get the opinion of people who have no bias and are not involved in the matter. What  the hell do we even need lawyers for?  Someone says they were victimized, the accuser is known by a biologist with a popular blog, some other people say they have heard the same gossip,  the accused is guilty, case closed.

Does Dick think that the same method used by PZ to accuse Shermer is also used by companies and schools across the country to decide if someone was actually stealing  or if they actually cheated on a test? Well if that is true he should get out of the house more often. Sure an accusation can begin an investigation but it should be reported to responsible people who can check into it’s validity before punishing the accused. No every instance does not have to be decided in a courthouse but most reputable organizations follow a process that is similar to the one used by the court system because it is a good model. For Dick to gloss over that fact gives the impression he omitting important aspects in order to better support his bias.

Richard Carrier (Dick for short) then goes through and shares his fantasies about Michael Shermer’s sexual experiences.(see above) I think it’s safe to say that Dick Carrier has no idea if what he is writing is even remotely close to the truth. Unless he can travel back in time and make himself invisible so he can witness the events he wasn’t there so it all comes down to- A bunch of shit. Dick can write fictional stories. We can put him up there with other fictional writers like say…. L Ron Hubbard. Very impressive but not useful.


Dick continues on-

 But the preponderance of evidence (a civil court burden, whereby a claim need only have a better than 50% chance of being true, so even just a 50.1% chance of being true would win a case) is enough for me to conclude that the general picture is probably true: Shermer pursues sex with women a lot, both one-night stands and ongoing affairs, and he has often enough done so without telling his wife or his various girlfriends. His recent attempt to compel PZ Myers to retract his report of what a witness told him appeared to deny even this (that Shermer has lots of consensual trysts and affairs), which I think is disingenuous at this point.

At this point I think it is fair to ask Dick to make up his mind. Is he going to treat this as if PZ’s blog is a court of law (civil or otherwise) or is he going to claim that accepted legal procedures do not apply because it is not a court? You can’t have it both ways Dick. If we are to consider the comparison used above then it is important to note that in a civil case ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUE ARE HEARD BEFORE ANY JUDGEMENT.

How hard is it to understand? Richard Carrier is educated isn’t he? He is supposed to be intelligent. I’m sorry but this application of logic when it fits what you want to believe is exactly like the behavior of religious people. In their day to day life they apply a certain logic to everything they do because if they didn’t it would be almost impossible to function. When they consider religion a entirely different set of rules come into play because religion is different and isn’t subject to the kind of logic that allows you to function and stay alive in the world you actually live in.  Richard Carrier, PZ Myers, and all the other people who are using this emotional and/or flawed formula are doing the same thing.

I don’t know what the fuck has happened to Dick and PZ and all the other morons who want to try and convince us there is a public process which has no connection to the court system and it should be used to pronounce judgement on people accused of improper behavior or crimes. Sure there is a court of public opinion but people should be responsible when voicing their opinion.

Popular public personalities/figures should be aware that their opinion carries weight. When Jenny Mcarthy said

 The idea that vaccines are a primary cause of autism is not as crackpot as some might wish.

I would assume she thought she was telling the truth. She was incorrect though, the idea was based on completely useless or just plain made-up data. The doctor who had said there was a link was a crackpot. Jenny had given him credibility and we all know the damage that has been done due to her irresponsible behavior. She said it in an attempt to protect children much in the way PZ, Dick and others are claiming to be protecting women from rape. But at what cost? No matter how they want to twist and turn and selectively use examples the bottom line is they are accusing a man of breaking a serious law and they have portrayed him as guilty by way of hearsay, without allowing him to answer his accuser. In fact without allowing him to answer at all. Now that the accusation and presumption of guilt have been made he can not answer without legal council. He would be an idiot to do so, especially considering the types of buffoons he is dealing with here. We all want to know the truth but PZ the Clown has made that even more difficult by acting like a twit.

I’d really like anyone who also chooses to ride the PZ Myers conjecture express to imagine if it was them. Imagine if this was the typical process we used to find innocence /guilt. Even the court of public opinion doles out punishment. Punishment should be deserved. Whether it is deserved should depend  on fair unbiased people learning as much factual information about the issue as possible and listening to all sides in order to form and educated opinion about the how events occurred.


There is a big red flag here. This red flag has popped up time and time again when you read some posts at FTB. There is no link to an opposite point of view. If the writers were honest, thought they had a sound argument, and respected their readers enough to allow them to come to their own conclusions after hearing all sides, then they would give the reader a way to find that information. Whenever you don’t find a link to the original information or the opposing view being criticized, unless it is unavailable, then that is a red flag. This is an important point. There is usually a reason the other side isn’t being represented in some form and that reason is almost never good.

Small Battle Won



Closed- No apologies will be issued

   While talking with Ally Fogg from FTB this past week I brought up the dungeon. The dungeon was a page where PZ Myers would list the people he had banned from his blog in a strange childlike manner. It was like   looking at the notches on a belt. For every character assassination there was a name and the manner in which their character has been killed with libel by PZ.  Ally claimed no knowledge of it and after the conversation I wondered what the dungeon looked like since PZ was banning anyone who was associated with the slymepit and he claimed I had created more than 30 fake accounts then there should be quite a list. At least 30 names supposedly on account of me alone.

When I went to look….the dungeon was gone. How could this be? I wondered how, what , why? Could it be that PZ had finally seen the light and recognized his behavior was juvenile and unfair? Could we count on PZ to focus on real issues instead of the regular trashing of someone based on some paranoid delusion in PZ’s head?  Then I found this. It’s a post from June 10th 2013 called No More Mr. Nice Guy. (allow me to suggest PZ get someone to write his titles for him cause they usually make no sense)

After reading the post I was a little let-down. PZ never mentions how his dungeon may have been unfair  or a bad idea.

He says

So yes, I’m fed up and I’ll be taking stronger action against these trolls and other assholes. But that does not in any way imply that I’m silencing disagreement…but that’s the message the trolls and assholes want to send out, to foment more harassment.I don’t ban that many people, and those that I do kick out, I try to be open about it, listing their names on the Dungeon page. Which leads to the other lie: that I’m unusually censorious. It turns out that being transparent about necessary banning actions, while just about every other goddamn blog out there just invisibly disappears objectionable junk, leads these phonies to make up more lies about policies here.

So I’m also changing something else. The Dungeon is gone. From now on, if you’re a jerk, you just get zapped and disappear forever, with no documentation, just like it’s done on the blogs of the assholes who accuse me of banning people for disagreeing with me.
It’ll save me a little work, too.

It’s kinda strange cause the people PZ disagrees with are often referred to as “assholes”, “jerks” or “slymers” which are all also the same terms he uses when talking about the people he has banned. I wonder, could this be the cause of some of the confusion PZ claims there is among critics of his policies?  I think so. PZ needs to be more clear or admit that as soon as someone doesn’t choose to see things his way in what he considers a proper amount of time they are told to shut up. If that instruction is not followed then they are banned. PZ doesn’t ban you for disagreeing, he bans you for not shutting up about your disagreement and for not changing your mind to agree with him. (note: you can also be banned for saying uncomplimentary things about his “horde”)

PZ also says he will be taking “stronger action” against the trolls and assholes. I don’t know what action he is planning on taking since there really is very little he can do about people who are posting comments unless he starts to approve comments.

Now if we could get PZ Myers on board the “No personal attacks” train then we will be on our way to a more peaceful interaction between not just skeptics and atheists but with believers too. I think a good way to ease into that would be for PZ to start better controlling his comment section. In the past he has bragged about how tough his horde is when in actuality they are just mean and intent on hurting people.Very little of their content is valid counter arguments, it is mostly personal insults, playground caliber name calling and threats. The number of people who seem to use PZ’s comment section as a way to vent frustrations is disturbing.

After all is said and done even with PZ making a clear attempt pretend this is all just because he choose to do it and the motivation was all the lies being told about him…it is a win.

PZ did something right by taking the dungeon page down and I will give him credit for that. It’s still too bad it wasn’t done because PZ recognized it was unfair and wrong but at least he has been stopped from continuously misrepresenting people. Pressure from others was also a factor so there is hope.

Not only that but it saves me a little work too.

Side-note: People can quit assuming I am somehow ‘obsessed’ with PZ too since it took a month for me to notice he posted about the removal I obviously don’t pay nearly the attention he claims I do. Sorry PZ, wrong about me again buddy, keep trying.



David Silverman In Wonderland

David Silverman, the current president of American Atheists was invited to and agreed (after some haggling) to be a guest on the Brave Hero podcast which is hosted by Justin Vacula (va-cool-a) and Karla Porter (chill-g-rll) I know them both and have found them to be honest and they both tend to take a more formal (professional) approach towards conflict. That podcast took place on June, 15 2013. David was invited to further discuss issues raised in a twitter conversation with Justin. These are my thoughts on that podcast and some related interaction I have had.


Freethought Blogs -We fail with more than just words

Before I talk about the Brave Hero podcast I’ll give you a little background on my interaction with David to be open and honest about things. I’ve had David Silverman on my podcast as a guest, I’ve had a couple conversations with him in person. I’ve had an ongoing conversation with him in the last week in private messages about the conflict that has been ongoing between atheist/skeptics and FTB/A+/skepchick poser skeptics. Nothing extensive, David didn’t seem to have many facts about Justin Vacula and his role in the conflict so I figured he would appreciate being better informed. That way he could form a fair opinion based on truths.

David was more than happy to discuss the issue with me but insisted I was associated with “the shit”. He wasn’t nearly as interested in listening to what I had to say as he was in getting me to understand his version of the conflict. It was as if I was just making things up. At times it was like I had said nothing at all. David just walked by facts as if they were not even there, he didn’t even stumble over them a little. It is like David doesn’t need any facts or details, he has the answers already.

So David agrees to appear on Brave Hero radio after he and Justin Vacula (vac-cool-a) had a dispute over Justin denouncing what David refers to as “the shit”. I’m not sure what “the shit” is exactly. So far, “the shit” seems to be defined as stuff that David calls “the shit”. That is as clear a definition as any David has offered (which is none/nothing/nada)

David dives in right at the start and you can hear the condescension immediately. When asked for some examples of what it is exactly David thinks is “the shit” in the atheist community he replies that he doesn’t need to provide any examples.  David then goes on to point out that there is no way for men to know what it is like to be a woman. It is one of the few valid points that David makes, the problem is Justin has not made the demand that women shut up  or claimed to know better what it’s like to be a woman than even women do. Never once have I heard him even come close to either of those things.

David gives me the impression that he thinks it is his place to scold Justin “to help make him a better activist”. If being a better activist means over-talking the host when on a podcast or steamrolling over another person during conversation then David Silverman is the best activist I’ve ever seen. PZ Myers calls me a ranting asshole? At least I can get my facts straight. David has a problem with that. He also seems to be hung up on a few catch phrases. “Go fuck a knife” is one “You are too ugly to be raped” is another. David also seems to be under the impression that fake twitter accounts are a major factor in people leaving atheist activism. He gives Jennifer McCreight as an example of someone who was forced out. From my understanding Jennifer has some issues that contributed to her leaving that had nothing to do with fake twitter accounts. I’m not sure what David thinks is going to result from something called ‘boobquake’ when it goes viral but if he expects the world to mind it’s manners when it comes to boobs he is living in a fantasy land. I’m not saying it is acceptable behavior but people should accept the fact men are often pigs who say rude things to women, it is going to happen.

David  continues to insist that Justin act with professionalism. I’m left wondering what would happen if say if Justin took David’s example for professionalism and embraced it. Would yelling over people and using vague undefined terms while he making false accusations and ranting about things he knows absolutely nothing about be a better approach than offering to discuss issues in a open public forum without personal attacks? I think any mature intelligent adult would say no to even suggest such a thing is shit.

David Silverman repeatedly dodges any attempts to point out how his relationships are just like the ones he is calling Justin on. PZ Myers has behaved in incredibly irresponsible ways. PZ should consider changing his legal name to Libel Lyers (nice ring) at this point.  I can’t believe David is totally ignorant to the  actions and words coming from PZ or the number of people he has pissed off because he isn’t willing to accept people as allies. He makes it quite clear he has no use for people who disagree with him or his attempts to force a certain mindset be accepted by atheists.

I get the fact that David Silverman is probably sick of the petty fighting, he is sick of the childish and chickenshit attacks on women. Let it be known I am tired of it too. There were things I thought I could count on from people who were skeptics and atheists as a general rule. I have learned a lesson. People, all types of people have the potential to act like fucking childish, self centered, judgmental, hyper-sensitive,  humorless, biased, idiots. I will no longer underestimate anyone’s ability to fit that description. I will however wait for them to fit the description before I apply it to them. Until then they get a basic deserved respect from me by default. They get the benefit of the doubt. I will also always be willing to settle any differences by talking to people. I will not sit on my hands and watch as religion is replaced by  something just as dangerous hidden under a veil of someone’s righteous ideology.

I am bothered by David Silverman’s behavior. As I have said before I had respect for him but I can not respect his actions in this case given I know for a fact he knew better. Here is my direct reply to him just  so no one gets it twisted.-

    David, I gave you examples of things that were done/said to me that are far more damaging than any Photoshop of FTB bloggers holding We (heart) Justin signs. There are dozens and dozens of examples on the net of other people with the same stories. You were deliberately deceptive in your conversation with Justin about association. Do you think he or anyone else doesn’t know that?

I made that Photoshop David and it was for a reason. Those people, just about EVERY SINGLE ONE in that photo suggested he not attend or even attempted to keep Justin from attending that conference. That is wrong and for you to be critical of Justin for trying to make light of actions that are sickening and juvenile demonstrates a clear favoritism on your part.

     Justin DID NOT post Surly Amy’s address on purpose. I was in contact with Justin during that event. He never wanted to attack Amy in any way. He was trying to defend himself. He posted the address by accident. He got chewed out for his mistake as soon as he made it by myself and others. It was a stupid mistake. For you to accuse him of malice is bullshit. Listen closely-I WAS THERE. YOU ARE WRONG.
Who do you think you are fooling David? Do you really think anyone who knows anything about this is going to have any respect for you after hearing your skewed version of events? There are 600+ members of the slymepit, you gave the impression that you think they are all making rape threats, that isn’t even close to true. To say they are all “shit” is just dumb.

       A couple of isolated comments by someone with a 12 year old maturity level are not a solid base for your argument. You are the shit in this instance David. You are full of shit, you are spreading shit, and you have stepped in shit. You can’t even define your own term. At one point you told Justin to own his own ownership? Really? I had a lot of respect for you David, I thought you would be at least fair, shit I thought you would at least be civil. You couldn’t even have a conversation, you had to try and intimidate Justin. What if he responds in the same manner as you have to him? I’m sorry I was mistaken and I’m embarrassed for you David.


One of the high points of the podcast was the chat. Someone under the name PZ Myers was part of the conversation. I have reason to believe it was him because I can’t think of anyone else who would claim to be even in jest. Could it be PZ finally gained the testicular fortitude to venture out from his protected little den infested by the inept horde and stepped into the real world? I will give him credit for that if it is the case. I will also note he was up to his same old tricks blabbering away as if his psychic powers allow him to know me and what I am thinking at all times. Claiming that my responses to his attacks on my character are reason to dismiss anything I may have to say. If you are reading this PZ keep in mind what I told you in the chat. It would do you wonders to chill the fuck out and listen to people just for a little while instead of treating them like shit for daring to disagree. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you it doesn’t make them wrong.

Here is a link to the Brave Hero podcast 

Here is a link to the chat,( highly recommended reading )


Note- As this is posted David has responded to my last message. While we still have major differences in opinion. It should be noted that David Silverman is willing to continue to discuss those differences in a respectful manner. If I am going to criticize I must also be able to acknowledge reasonable behavior and willingness to at least try and find common ground. After the reasoned, respectable behavior we have seen from slymepitters who have been in discussion with Stephanie Zvan.  I wonder what will be said when it is proven that people who are part of the slymepit are not  hateful monsters after all. Time will tell, I hope some people are ready to put their social justice feet where their mouths are.

I will be following up on this, trust me.

What’s in a Name? / Where is the Diversity?

PZ calls the rude inept simpletons who rule his comment section with the swift justice of a sharp rock but with half the intellect “the horde”.

I wondered where PZ came up with the name so I looked it up. Here are some of the results. You might find them interesting.

Is this where PZ got the idea for ‘the horde’?

Okay, yea I can see that.  Really does fit some of the posts I’ve seen and the type I picture expressing themselves in that manner.

Or maybe this-

  • The Horde MC: A national biker gang with a reputation for extreme violence and racial bigotry. One visit to Farmington was a robbery that ended with the culprits arrested by the Strike Team. In season 6, the Horde are mentioned as buying a large shipment of meth. Ronnie goes undercover and this results in the arrest of three of the Horde bikers.

Hmmmm…racial bigotry. Doesn’t really seem to fit. Odd picking a name that has been represented  in this manner. Didn’t PZ bother to check what the name would conjure up in people’s heads when they heard it? Guess not.

Or maybe this-


Seems a bit too sexy for PZ. There is the time he tried to hook up with a woman for sex on stage so maybe …

This looks like it has potential-


    Or maybe PZ was thinking of the historical account of Horde –

  •    After founding the Mongol Empire and being proclaimed “Genghis Khan”, he started the Mongol invasions that resulted in the conquest of most of Eurasia. These campaigns were often accompanied by wholesale massacres of the civilian populations. An estimated that 30 million people were killed under the rule of the Mongol Empire

     During the Black Death plague the Mongol army was reportedly withering from the disease, they decided to use the infected corpses as a biological weapon. The corpses were catapulted over city walls, infecting the inhabitants. 


Well….that’s not good. Who the hell would name their regular commenters after that fucked-up mess? PZ must not have given much thought to the title. He may as well call them “The Clan”  They were total assholes but at least they didn’t lob infected dead bodies at people.

Nah that name wouldn’t work either. Who would believe such a diverse group of people would call themselves  “The Clan” ?  In order to do that they would have to be all white people and that couldn’t possibly be…. Oh wait…..

Behold the diversity that is "the horde" !!

Behold the diversity that is “the horde” !!

I’m a bit confused…. If a person of color goes into the comment section of PZ’s blog is this the group that is going to tear them to shreds?  I know there have been victims of ‘the horde” who were minorities. What is up with that?  Something about that doesn’t seem right.

Well at least we have the Freethought Bloggers they must be represented by some diversity right?

Well….there are mostly women…. that’s good right? Maybe the FTB bloggers with darker skin just don’t go to conferences or something, I really don’t know  much about how that works at FTB. It would maybe be a good idea to help minorities feel comfortable about attending or maybe they could use some help with the cost. Discount tickets for those who aren’t being paid as well as other people. I’ve heard that happens.  If you are going to talk about it so much then it seems action should follow. Jason Thibeault managed to get his trip paid for with donations didn’t he? Is Canadian a minority?  I’m pretty sure it isn’t.


Definitively Divisive



PZ Myers is afraid of the slymepit if his actions are any indication

Ron Lindsay, President of The Center for Inquiry opened up the Women in Secularism 2 conference in DC this past weekend with this talk. Ron then caught a load of crap from some people. Rebecca Watson said-

Very strange to open #wiscfi w a white male CEO lecturing women about using the concept of privilege to silence men.

The inability of secular leaders to take on & respond to polite constructive criticism is embarrassing. #wiscfi http://ow.ly/1WpuDC

PZ said-

PZ Myers@pzmyers 17 May

Not very impressed with Lindsay opening #wiscfi with a caricature.

Wait…@RALindsay was thinking of and objecting to ME in his opening remarks? I am so proud.

  These two are amazing to say the least. It’s like Rebecca has naked pictures of PZ doing something he shouldn’t and is using them to control him. PZ defends everything Rebecca does. Rebecca has even snapped at PZ and PZ just rolls over and waits for her to rub his belly. Okay maybe Rebecca doesn’t have any pic but there  is something odd about the relationship between them.
 PZ has criticized Sam Harris, Steven Novella, Michael Shermer, Ron Lindsay, Richard Dawkins  as well as countless other popular and not so well known atheists on their stance about feminism. How damn good does PZ really think he is?
   Rebecca, PZ , Jason Thibeault, Ophelia Benson, Stephanie Zvan and the other handful of poser skeptic bloggers along with  ‘the horde of idiots’ PZ has amassed in his comment section have been tearing down groups like JREF, RDF and CFI as they try to force their agenda on the rest of the world. So far they have been getting kicked in the face as a result.
PZ Myers, who at this point has got to be the most out of touch individual I have ever seen, keeps acting as though he and his “horde” are going to take over the world. Unfortunately, in reality, they couldn’t take over a grade-school playground if they used a tank.
  PZ continues to ban anyone from the slymepit in his comment section. How damn paranoid can you get? The people in the slymepit must be hitting on a nerve pretty hard for PZ to damn the whole forum the way he has. The forum keeps getting a bad rap from some of the rad fems aligned with PZ and Rebbecca. Melody claimed that “half the slymepit” has descended upon Ron Lindsay’s blog post . In reality there were 6 people who had posted that had direct links to the slymepit forum…..FYI for Melody and whoever else doesn’t get it-  There are over 600 members in the slymepit forum. Melody isn’t too good at math or she has caught whatever it is PZ has. Maybe PZ thinks there are only 12 members of the slymepit since he can’t seem to figure out who has actually posted there and who hasn’t.
 In my last blog I talked about how Rebecca hasn’t been able to come up with any solutions. PZ is no better , in fact I think it is safe to say he is even worse. PZ has turned out to be confused by relatively simple concepts such as- The world doesn’t think exactly the way you do.  or  Just because someone doesn’t agree with you on every point it doesn’t make them your enemy.
   PZ is behaving like Christians who hear you don’ t believe in god, they say “Don’t believe in god? Oh you worship the devil then huh?” I think I can say most if not all atheists do not worship the devil although I can tolerate Satanists easier than some Christians.
  PZ has been the single most divisive element in this civil war. He refuses to try and understand the opposing view, it is dismissed outright. This is a very dangerous way of doing things. When you make it clear a group is not worth listening  to or dealing with then what are you saying?  Aren’t you saying that group has no worth? When you send that kind of message then how are people going to act towards that group?  They are going to consider them worthless. After all what use is a group of people you want nothing to do with and won’t listen to?  It’s all well and good to say they can go on about their business but do you really  think you are never going to cross paths? What happens then? Confrontation built from resentment and lack of respect.  Without being over dramatic I can say-This is the kind of thing that has destroyed countries and resulted in countless deaths in our history. PZ Myers can’t seem to wrap his fat head around that neither can a lot of other people who think there are only two sides to this and that both sides are equally wrong/right.
  Who is listening to PZ myers anyways? Well a bunch of people who ripped right into Ron Lindsay hang on every word PZ writes which seems a bit  odd to me. PZ is an old white male who lives in an isolated part of Minnesota. He clearly is not a people person. He does not have an outgoing or easy-going personality. He is not even mildly friendly a lot of the times I have seen him interact with people. He clearly has two different (at least) personalities. He is a timid but rude mouse in real life and he is the almighty leader of  ‘the horde’ on the internet. He and the horde are going to change the world as long as they don’t have to actually have a discussion with or meet anyone in real life. Another concept PZ isn’t quite getting.
  I have been making these points for a while now and I see the tide turning. I can see more and more people who are tired of the bullshit, double talk and divisive antics of the FTB/skepchick/radical feminist gang. Now if we could just figure a way to get through those ego barriers and into the echo chambers they have built out of their fans….

Richard Carrier….rejected



So  Richard Carrier gave a talk at the American Atheist convention in Austin….the fallout continues. It is amazing  the severe meltdown and the cutting of the ties to reality Richard Carrier is going through over the downvotes his presentation has acquired on youtube.  Am I being overly dramatic? Look for yourself  Atheism…Plus What?  The first few comments are enough to see what I’m talking about. If you get to Oolon’s comment you have gone one too far. Don’t bother. Since Oolon is the only person on the planet who is blocked from this blog comment section I won’t trash talk him, there is always twitter for that.

Anyway…..The lengths Richard goes to in order to defend his presentation is embarrassing. It’s like when we were kids and we played cops and robbers. There was always that one kid who never went down when he got shot. You would have your finger right up his nose and yell “BANG! YOU’RE DEAD!” and the kid would reply “You missed!” and then run off with the bank’s money like a criminal zombie with a gunshot wound to the head. Over and over Richard has faced fingers pointed right between his eyes and he just keeps yelling “YOU MISSED ME!”

It’s painful to watch. Richard is perfectly childlike in the way he avoids facing the fact he could, dare I say it? Be mistaken???! At the time of this post his video is at 18,129 total views with 654 upvotes and  4338 downvotes. Richard has been pulling out all the stops though. Actually spending time to ‘answer’ some of the commenters. This has not done him any good, in fact it seems to have brought to the surface some personality traits that Richard may want to focus on if he should ever decide to see a therapist.

There is an excellent reply to Richard Carrier by which can be found here

   However, like I said , Richard is having none of it.  After Thunderf00t posts a video explaining some of the problems with Richards presentation the reply to it is  this Is Thunderf00t a Sociopath?

Richard Carrier starts out with the usual character assassination that FTB are now known for and continues to make assumptions through the entire post. Richard Carrier has become just another over dramatic actor in the dispute among skeptics.  Richards attack on Thunderf00t is met with a reply.  If Richard Carrier was really as bright as some people say he is he would shut the hell up and go hide out for a while

   Over and over again Richard has been handed his ass on a platter. Over and over Richard lifts the lid and then slams it back down and starts yelling at his server.

  PZ Myers of course had to put in his $.02 and as usual it is way overvalued, so much so I’m not even going to link it.  PZ Myers is more out of touch than Carrier when it comes to reality and social interaction. PZ also lives in a state that ranks at the bottom third when it comes to diversity so in his bubble of course it’s going to look like minorities are not being included. Maybe he should concentrate on getting his own state to be more welcoming to minorities then he can start bragging about he knows better than anyone else.

  I guess the moral of the story is some people just can’t ever accept they are wrong and PZ Myers is always going to be a dick….Oh and I told you so Richard. Months ago when you first tried to separate the atheists/skeptics with your us vs. them bullshit. Which is EXACTLY what you did so stop telling lies.

 I’ll leave you with one of my latest video replies to the skeptics posers

Get A Clue




And the game goes on..

Richard Carrier gave a talk at the American Atheist convention on A+.

  When I first heard Richard had given a talk on A+ I wasn’t surprised. I felt a little bad for him cause I knew he had done himself, or his dignity, at least a little bit of harm.  As of this posting the video has 9,682 views with 464 upvotes and 1,373 downvotes. Of course you can’t just by default say that proves much except when you read the comments you can see where the problem is with A+. It’s not so much the idea itself as it is the behaviors of the people who support it that killed it.

Richard says in his blog

Video of my talk at the 2013 American Atheists Convention (their 50th anniversary!) is now online. It is getting downvotes from the haters (even at one point more downs than ups). Please go watch that video (Atheism…Plus What?) and see if you can find anything in it that honestly deserves a downvote. Seriously. And if you don’t, please upvote it. Show the haters they don’t own the movement.

Others reading the comments (I can’t stomach such a task myself) tell me that the downvotes appear to be coming from people who didn’t even watch the video (or didn’t watch it all through). It appears, in fact, that these downvotes are there in an attempt to discourage people from watching the video, rather than representing disagreement with its actual content or quality or value.

Actually there is very little comment coming from people who seem uninformed on the subject. I think maybe the people who are describing the comments to Richard are trying to spare his feelings. That’s nice of them but not helpful. Richard needs a little reality check IMO. Maybe if Richard would actually take 5-7 minutes of his precious time to read the comment section he would get a better idea of why people don’t like his idea. The fact of the matter is there is plenty of information and public opinion available to figure out what the majority of people think about A+ and Richard Carrier’s version of it.

To say Richard Carrier is out of touch would be an understatement . Richard Carrier is more likely to reach out and touch the moon than he is to understand what A+ has done and what it has become.  It has become a non-issue. The A+ forum was a joke. Between the call to run out all them bad atheists and the demands everyone conform to a certain set of behaviors it never stood a chance. Look at the shit we had to go through just to make it so blacks could go to the same schools as whites, or what we are going through now just to allow people who love each other to make a life long commitment to that relationship.  Those are issues that should be very simple to figure out yet we have had to fight to get them accepted and there are still people today who don’t get it , those battles are not won. Some of the things that the A+ forum expected were never going to fly and they didn’t even get off the ground. It became a bunch of victims trying to make victims of others because they  thought boys and girls were two different genders.

There are still some things we need to work on of course. Feminism defined as women having the same rights and privileges as men needs to succeed and I am convinced it will because it makes sense and it benefits everyone.  There will always be some differences in what roles are preferred by each gender in society. As long as no one is being kept out or forced into then we should leave well enough alone. Just because there are more men than women or women than men active in something does not mean we need to take immediate actions and force a  50-50 split on it.

Richard is a busy guy. he has made that point over and over again on his blog. I would suggest that if Richard can not keep up with the facts about the subjects he chooses to speak about in public as if he was an authority on it, then he should leave it to people who have some knowledge of the subject. It is clear Richard does not have a good grasp  A+ and the effect it has had on atheists/skeptics.

Richard tries to provide a defense/explanation of his position by suggesting people listen to an interview he did with Tony Sobrado. You can find the post here.

I left the following comment on that interview-
My opinion after listening to the 15 of available audio is that Mr Carrier is in over his head. As much as he has contributed in other ways to atheism, dealing with social issues is not one of his strengths. Judging from the way he answers comments to his blogs Richard has an ego problem and needs to get over himself. Assuming you already know all the answers is a flawed position to start from and Richard Carrier should be well aware of that fact. If it was all as simple as he makes it out to be then the problem would have been solved way before Richard and the rest of the A+ crowd came along. Suggesting it is productive to avoid interacting with those who do not share your point of view also shows an ignorance of how progress has been made on social issues up to now. When you have something in common with other people you should build from that, not ignore that commonality and instead focus on finding what it is you can use to chastise  those people about.

There has been a considerable amount of pushback against people like PZ Myers, Adam Lee, Stephanie Zvan, and Ophelia Benson (and others)  and it’s not always because they are wrong on their original points. It is because of the way they present those points and the way they automatically condemn anyone who doesn’t agree with them and then when those people try to defend themselves against unfair judgements they are even more evil. Not only do they disagree with the original point, they are actively fighting against it now. How could those people be so evil and feel so much hate for women and minorities??! There isn’t any hate accept for the bias being demonstrated against them by people who claim to be all inclusive. They aren’t being reasonable, and they arent being fair. If you don’t believe me then take a look at the response from commenters to my apology to Stephanie Zvan on her blog.

There was no way I could win. If I didn’t apologize , I was a sexist jerk. When I did apologize it wasn’t worded correctly, or it wasn’t in enough places, or it wasn’t quick enough or my favorite- I just didn’t mean it. When you try to do the right thing and get a load of bullshit back in response to it what do you think is going to happen in the future? I did what I thought needed to be done. I directed my apology to Stephanie because that is who I was talking to. Anyone who has anything to say about it can suck it. It’s really none of their business. I don’t even know if Stephanie has accepted my apology since I can feel my IQ drop as I read through the comments on her blog. She may have addressed it, I don’t expect she would post about it like she did when I wronged her it seldom works like that. Although if I were to hear Adam Lee or PZ Myers even suggest they were maybe a bit unfair about some of the claims they made about myself, or anyone else, I would acknowledge their attempt to correct an injustice. I don’t think you’ll be reading about that anytime soon.

Atheists and Skeptics and Psychics Oh My!

So I’ve been using this new software….It’s pretty cool.
I have been using it to express my displeasure and/or make observations about some skeptics and atheists who aren’t quit acting in a manner that demonstrates skepticism or represents atheism in a good way….In my opinion of course.

It’s is pretty much all in good fun. As you will see below I am not afraid to laugh at myself. I think it builds character and sometimes checks your ego when/if it is needed. I will admit that my choice of actors was directly effected by the actions of certain people who have misrepresented my motives and/or character in the past. Instead of telling lies or making stuff up the way they do, I instead choose to find the humor and irony in their behaviors and put them on public display.  This might just give anyone who listens to these people cause to pause and consider how much credibility they have, or maybe it will just make them giggle. You can choose to be offended or take it personal if you wish. If you do then maybe you should be taking a good look at yourself first because I’ve noticed those feelings usually come from within. It’s kinda like looking in a fun-house mirror, only the reflection is how you look in real life. Do you blame the person who is holding the mirror for your reflection?

Viddy well,

PZ Myers vs Ophelia Benson by reapsowradio


Adam Lee- Contradict Much? by reapsowradio


Happy Birthday PZ Myers ya dick by reapsowradio


GoogleHangout+ by reapsowradio


Stephanie Zvan-Narcissistic by reapsowradio



Ophelia Benson and the pineapple by reapsowradio


PZ Myers and the Fortress of Censorship by reapsowradio


PZ Myers wraps it up by reapsowradio


To show I’m not just picking on poor old PZ and the gang I’ll post the last video about Chip Coffey. You may know him from Paranormal State or Psychic Kids on A&E. You can also learn about him here

And this is a video parody of a ‘psychic’ named Robbie Thomas. Robbie Thomas claims to be able to find the bodies of children who have been abducted. One time Robbie got so pissed at me in a chat that he told me I would be sorry when I needed his services to help find my disabled son one day. You can learn more about this model of compassion here


And last but not least, well yea, least……we have Peter Popoff. James Randi took care of him a long time ago but as usually happens Peter crawled out from under his rock and he is back. You can catch him doing late night infomercials for his ‘miracle spring water’. I did as Peter asked and sent a request. This video gives a run down on how that went. Note: Peter no longer sends me mail.


Freethought blogs

Friendly Abuse

Freethought blogs

To make up for lost ad revenue FTB has launched a new product line

    Ever since I became involved in an ongoing dispute with a little gang of  FTB  bloggers, some assorted A+ idiots, and a few skepchicks there has been one thing going on that bothered me more than anything else. I’ve addressed it in private conversations, I’m not guilty of  being a completely inconsiderate prick.  Even though I had relayed my feelings in private I really should have written about it long before this.

Having had internet (and real life) disputes pretty often as a result of my inability to just let some things continue without question, I have developed a thick skin.  Even though some people like to claim I’m on an angry tirade because they are so strongly effected by my words, that isn’t always the case. Sometimes the reply to me is as harsh as the other party can muster.  When it has no effect on me you will often learn exactly what type of character we are dealing with. They take the cheap shots.  Some try the personal attack, accusing me of being a drug addict or I must have a mental illness because I didn’t crumble when dealt the sharpness of their wit (yawn) Or maybe a comment about how I must be abusing my children or girlfriend.  Insults directed towards my “retarded” son.(from the classy people like iesvs on reddit)  Rape threats against my daughter ( no I’m not going on a crusade over this) Suggestions that I might need the help of a psychic in order to find the body of my son one day. The IRA was supposed to be leaving a bomb on my front porch on a couple occasions, not sure what happened there unless it was the same evening Satan was supposed to come over and “fuck my ass real good” You name it and some weak minded idiot has probably said it, threatened it, or wished it upon me.

Then we have the attack preferred by people like PZ Myers.  That would be the ‘friendly attack’ or ‘guilt by association’. It’s not as bad as any of the previous tactics,  it is far worse.  We know how PZ takes a great pride in making his opponent out to be a fuckwit  asshole who offers nothing to the conversation because the only intent they have is to focus everything on them.  PZ would have made the greatest worst dictator if only he had been born  someplace where his type of personality could thrive, like say North Korea.  Would anyone really be that surprised to hear about PZ erecting a statue of himself with a giant squid in one hand as his weapon against the tone trolls who oppose him?  Maybe we would see giant murals of his puffy face looking into the sky in a proud defiance of rational thinking with Anthony K and Caine jacking each other off at his feet.  Well, I could see it.   North Korea got lucky and avoided such a fate, instead PZ pulls his shit on a different scale in a different place.  Instead PZ had a need to take a jab at my friend Al Sefanelli.

In case you don’t know it, Al is a widely respected, outspoken atheist. Though he has never claimed it, Al is a true leader. No he doesn’t  sit at his keyboard and show people how to act like judgmental fools. He never tried to get anyone who would listen to go fuck up the results of another groups internet poll. He never gave a lame title to the regulars who commented on his blog like they were some type of playground gang. Nor has he ever commanded/encouraged  those people to attack an individual with a differing opinion, not even if they had the gall to post something off the topic of the original  post.  Al Stefanelli has proven himself to be a leader by his actions, his words, and the way he applied those words. Then he topped it off with some real-life activism. He never has claimed the leadership role and that is another way he has proven  to be an exceptionally good one. I have long believed if a person is truly skilled,  if they actually can perform at a level above others there is no need for them to point it out, it will be easily observed by others. This is the case with Al.

PZ for whatever reason(s) felt he needed to take a cheap shot at me through Al by posting a video by a shit band with a song title mentioning racism.  Although I have learned this is the type of thing we should expect from PZ, it bothers me that Al was dragged into the argument. Al had even suggested PZ get the benefit of the doubt on ReapSowRadio the week prior. PZ in his infinite wisdom didn’t know that and he isn’t really into showing anyone else any consideration the way Al does.

From that point on Al Stefanelli was subject to the babbling libel and incorrect assumptions that have become a regular practice among some of the North Korean leadership   other FTB bloggers, A+ idiots, and skepchicks.

Al took the bullshit in stride until he was pushed to the point where he had no choice but to defend himself. As usual his response was to the point and scathing. And, as usual , the response from the other side was more libel, some stupid, and a lot of delusion.

The entire time, before and after he had been dragged in,  Al had my back. Not the way we see people like Stephanie Zvan defend the idiotic juvenile antics of people like Greg Laden. Al made sure lies about me were shown to be just that and he defended my character when someone like Ophelia Benson would make claims that she could only have known if she had psychic abilities. It was the only explanation since I have never met her in my life. I suppose she could have been hiding in random shadows, taking notes on my interaction with others for a few years.  I really doubt that is the case since she squawks so much I would have easily heard her early  on should she have made such an attempt.

The guilt by association attempted by PZ and others (adam lee) was unfortunate. I talked to Al about it and told him I was sorry about it and he assured me he never held it against me.  I’ve seen it happen again even to people who I couldn’t say were my close friends but they found themselves linked simply by considering my point of view and encouraging others to make informed opinions.  So far those people have all reacted by refusing to cower when threatened with this intimidation tactic. I would like to  thank them for being an example of something I’ve said in the past and has proven true so far. The Truth Always Wins , And It Only Hurts You If You Deserve It .


  Thanks Al, I hope I never make you feel like you made the wrong choice in supporting me  but if I do, I fully expect you to call me on it. You are a true friend and leader. Neither needed to be pointed out but they did deserve to be acknowledged.




Ophelia ‘boredom’ Benson



The following is an email correspondence between Thaumas Themelios and Ophelia Benson regarding a deleted comment on Ophelia’s blog (http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2011/focus/), which was later re-posted here: http://gnuatheism.wikispaces.com/Elevator+Guy+Kerfuffle

    The purpose of publishing this correspondence is to document Ophelia’s stated reasons for deleting the post, at the time the deletion occurred, to allow for accurate commentary and criticism in relation to ongoing discussions regarding the origins and development of several major controversies related to atheist and skeptical communities, of which this discussion is a recent example: http://www.michaelnugent.com/2013/03/15/eight-choices-we-can-make-to-help-move-beyond-the-rifts-in-the-atheist-and-skeptical-communities/

     The publishing of this information is protected under the Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) limitation and exception of United States copyright law, which states that: “the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.”

Unnecessary identifying information has been removed to protect individuals’ privacy.

Correspondence follows, in chronological order:


Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 15:16:07 -0400
From: Thaumas Themelios
Subject: Wonderist stop it.

Hi Ophelia,

If you would be more clear on what’s wrong with my posts, I would
attempt to change how I post. Just telling me to ‘stop it’ doesn’t give
me anything to go on. Stop doing what exactly?

Sometimes they’re long. I’ve got a lot to say and feel the need to be
clear so that I’m not misinterpreted (as happens so frequently in this
particular discussion). But it appears that just length isn’t your
concern, since some long stuff goes through and others get deleted
without warning.


Here is a comment I would like to post. I think it addresses important
issues. If you let me know what you object to, I could modify it, or
refrain from posting:

@Godless Heathen

The shitstorm had already started over Rebecca’s comment about the
guy propositioning her in the elevator at 4am. The McGraw stuff
brought that comment to a wider audience. Most of that audience did
NOT listen to the original comment themselves and started going nuts
because they thought they were being told to never hit on women
anywhere, ever or they thought “Oh-My-God-How-Will-I-Ever-Get-Laid
if I can’t ask a woman for “coffee” in an enclosed space at 4
AM????? OHMYGOD, now I’m doomed to be a single, shy, lonely guy

I use ‘shitstorm’ to refer to people making unfounded accusations
against one another, leading to largescale vilification, escalation, and
entrenchment on both sides.

The comments on the video were largely anonymous and usually just
expressed a different opinion. Yes, some were over-the-top misogyny, and
others were examples of the escalation pattern I’ve been describing.
It’s of course worth going after the actual misogyny and sexism that
occurred. But this kind of thing has occurred many times before, and it
never got to the point of people Dawkins getting involved and caught up
in the vilification.

This kind of thing would have run its course on its own, probably with
RW unambiguously coming out way ahead. In fact, it had already been
through the blogosphere once (the AronRa video) and didn’t get
Pharyngulated. What gave it extra juice was the McGraw incident, when
several attendees and others took issue with Watson’s treatment of
McGraw. At this point, we have a clear example of the escalation pattern
against someone who states herself that she was grossly misrepresented
and was not in any way supportive of misogyny, nor was she ‘anti-woman’.

This was again escalated with the Naming Names post, et voila, the
shitstorm ensues.

Why was this the beginning of the shitstorm and not before? Because
people (many feminists among them) who spoke up defending McGraw got
tarred with the same brush as the actual misogynists and sexists. In
fact, that’s the brush that McGraw herself got tarred with. This is when
the assuming of malicious intentions got so out of whack that feminists
were attacking feminists as anti-woman, when really it was a matter of
difference of opinion over a hot topic.

The same pattern of vilification is evident with the treatment of
Richard Dawkins. I’ll note that Rebecca Watson has herself been a victim
of such vilification. That is why I’m attempting to leave out my
personal opinion and only report Watson’s actions, rather than speculate
as to her motives. In the end, the motives don’t make much of a
difference, it’s the behaviour that perpetuates the cycle.

From: Ophelia Benson
Subject: RE: Wonderist stop it.
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:14:40 -0700

Hi Thaumas,

Maybe there wouldn’t be much wrong with them (though they’d still be too long,
but then so are some others, for my taste) taken independently, but after all
those endless detailed ones about McGraw they’re just too much. Some long stuff
goes through because I don’t like to delete, but the basic reason is just too
much too much. Plus you’re repeating yourself – but then we all are.

I think I’ll just close comments soon.


Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 16:27:24 -0400
From: Thaumas Themelios
Subject: Re: Wonderist stop it.

In my defence I’ll just say that I only repeated myself when others
repeated the same misunderstandings. However, I take your point.
Also, I kept posting in response to others responding to me. But again,
I take your point.

I’ll just post that one last reply (because it is to a comment directly
in response to me) and will sign off at the end of it. Sorry for taking
up your time.


From: Ophelia Benson
Subject: RE: Wonderist stop it.
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 13:56:21 -0700

No problem. Sorry I was snappish. I get antsy when comments spiral out of
control, as they keep doing on this subject. I hope nothing new happens that
prompts me to bring it up again. Arrrrrgh.