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Pat Condell - What I know about Islam
Skeeve
I'll just leave this here. I don't think we'll have any Islamic scholars refuting it any time soon.


"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
JohnH
I have commented in a similar way here before so please forgive my sounding somewhat repetitious.

I find the readiness that some are willing to condemn islam as inherently violent more than a little troubling. One of the most kind and thoughtful people I worked with in a 35 year career was a fairly devout muslim. I would be more than willing to testify in a court of law that to the extent I knew him from work he would be incapable of harming another human unless circumstances forced him or by an accident.

I also know american jews, religious or otherwise, who will defend israeli actions no matter how brutal or violent. An argument could be made that, with the exception of some of the outright massacres of the old testament, jews have been a minority in most of the places they have existed and they have been subjected to more persecution than other religions. That does not, in my mind justify, the excesses of the jewish state.

And what of christianity. Do any of you think that the slaughter of retreating iraqis on the "highway of death" in 1991 was not in some way related to the fact that the majority of the killers were christians killing muslims. The instances of christians killing the other are far to numerous to even begin to enumerate. I would suggest we only need to look at how far we have exceeded any blood atonement for the killing of some 3000 americans on 911.

One must always be careful when calling out a specific religion for its tendencies to violence. Religion has always found its purity a convenient excuse for violence against the other. It is a fact of religion not of a specific one.

It is also true that all religions are male dominate and repressive of females. That is in general a long standing tribal fact, with some notable exceptions. Some aspects are more repellent than others but the selling of young females for financial and status gains is only recently been limited in non muslim countries and I suspect it is declining in muslim countries.

A PS. I would also point out that during the midieval period islamic scholars were doing far superior work to the church suppressed scholars in the rest of the developed world with the possible exception of china.
Edited by JohnH on 04/19/2010 18:00
 
Skeeve
John, all religions are treated pretty equally here. I don't see this video as calling out a specific religion, per se, but a continuing rant by Pat because he is experiencing the encroachment of Islam on his home turf. Pat is down all all religions, has made numerous similar videos against fundie christards and has spoken out on the jewish folks as well.

His focus is on Islam at the moment because apparently the British government is being very appeasing to the Muslims and it's not sitting right with him.

IMO, when taken as a whole, Islam, as it is written and interpreted, is a violent religion. Luckily, there are more educated, moderate Muslims in the world than there are extremists.

There is no need for me to quote verses from Leviticus and other chapters of the bible to show you the "duties of good jews and/or christians". The same type punishments are found in the Koran. What's different is the number of offenses that these punishments can be applied to.

I've read the bible from cover to cover more than a few time, and I'm pretty sure there isn't any call to kill a non-jew or non-christian for failing to convert.

Like I said, we're lucky there are more moderates in all three of the crazy religions than there are fundies. They are the ones that continue in their attempts to follow the out-of-date precepts of superstitious goad herders by thinking that anything their god has allegedly said is more binding than their local law. These are the ones that create the perception of violence. At least the jews and christians have stopped their stonings and sacrifices.

The Muslims are just playing catchup, their barbarism keeps getting perpetuated because their populations are some of the poorest in the world*. When you don't have anything to call your own or have any hope of a decent future, doing something extreme in the name of your god and expecting a reward in the afterlife looks pretty good.

(*Excepting the oil producing Middle East, whose rulers enforce Islamic Law more for the crowd control than out of piety.)
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
seeker
Skeeve - Exodus 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

I could go on and on, especially when you also consider the various characterizations of heathens receiving eternal punishment, suggesting that God really intends to mess them up so it doesn't matter how you treat them.

The point is that the bible is easily as violent in how it suggests unbelievers be treated. We only accept it more because we are more familiar with it.


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Skeeve
Those passages are god saying he will kill or destroy...it doesn't say "you must kill".

There is one verse in Deut. that could be interpreted to say it, but again, it doesn't say it as a all encompassing command for all time.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
seeker
When you couple it with the examples of carious 'righteous men' killing the infidels that are given in the bible it amounts to the same thing.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
JohnH
I would point out that regardless of the specific wording of the bible there are more than a few historical examples of christians of various forms killing the other, sometimes fellow christians. These killings were often justified by the killers understanding of what their bible allowed. The new testament may be more circumspect in what punishment is allowed for non-belief than other religious documents. It is also not specific, to my understanding, in forbidding using religious belief as a reason for suppression or even death of the other.
 
seeker
I stand corrected, someone posted this link on another thread (sorry, I've forgotten who posted it). There are a few direct commands to 'kill the infidel' in the bible
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Skeeve
I saw that as well and only skimmed it, but I did see quite a few verses that I need to read to verify, but it looks like I was wrong as well.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
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