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The US Pledge of Allegiance
Bob of QF
I went to a fund raiser dinner on Thursday night.

Had fun-- I won a nice stainless steel shotgun, with only a $20 investment in raffle tickets... Grin

At the start of the dinner, though, we all stood to say the pledge.

When the part came to "under god" I just skipped over that, and remained silent for those two words.

No one said anything.

Was interesting-- was the first time I'd had a chance to say the pledge in public since I began to admit to myself that I didn't believe in god. (which was, what, 2005? I may have to google...)

I wonder if we might consider saying the pledge at our regular Tulsa Atheist meetings, sans the "under god" bit, once in a great while?

I dunno. Sometimes I think saying the pledge is a silly thing-- either a person cares about their country or they do not.

Paying lip-service with a little near-poem to a symbol will not change anything.

Patriotism cannot be forced, neither can it be accomplished by ritual.

I'm of two minds in the issue.

What'a'yall think?
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Bob of QF
Results of my google for

"bob the unbeliever"

yielded 63 returns, all but one made by little ole' me.

google search

Tried to find myself on the very first forum I posted on, under the name "Unbeliever"... was an old unmoderated board "why we hate bush" back in 2005 or so. No luck.

Amusing, though, seeing me in various old posts on Sci forums and topix.

Edit: *phooye* This board software is not true BBS software, and didn't recognize my "url wizard" syntax.

Just google, WITH quotes "bob the unbeliever" if you're really morbidly interested....
Edited by Bob of QF on 08/23/2008 01:37
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
FreakMeow
Bob of QF wrote:

I dunno. Sometimes I think saying the pledge is a silly thing-- either a person cares about their country or they do not.

Paying lip-service with a little near-poem to a symbol will not change anything.

Patriotism cannot be forced, neither can it be accomplished by ritual.

I'm of two minds in the issue.

What'a'yall think?


I agree with you. It is silly. People care or they don't.


When I was in school we didn't have to say the but we pledge attest had to stand up for it. When ever I was in the mood to actually say the pledge I use to say "one nation under Canada, above Mexico." Anyone what could hear would laugh
 
catman
:lol: I like that, seeker. There was a big argument in the local papar recently, caused by a resident who wrote in and stated that his pledge was only: I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, one nation, with liberty and justice for all". He stated that he refused to pledge allegiance to the flag, but only to the country. I rather like that, although the flag is handy as a representation in affairs like the Olympics and in conflicts with other countries.
Edited by catman on 08/23/2008 02:04
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
seeker
Um, gee thanks. Can someone tell me what I did?
 
RayvenAlandria
I would say "INDIVISIBLE" Super loud instead of under God. hehehe

;dancing;
 
catman
sseker: Sorry. I meant to compliment FreakMeow on his "under Canada, under Mexico" substitution. It was late and I was somewhat inebriated. Surely you did something worth complimenting.:confused:
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
RayvenAlandria
Cat, you're silly. FreakMeow is a girl.

Go back to your catbed and sleep it off.

;lolsmile;
 
catman
Grrr. I was using 'his' in the generic sense, but I apologize, not knowing (or remembering) the gender of said FreakMeow. I think I'll go to my litter box.

I need more litter. Will someone go get some for me?;cat;
Edited by catman on 08/24/2008 02:15
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
seeker
I'm so glad because she was way to cute to be a guy.
 
Hypatia
;kittyball;

It's okay Cat, happens to us all once in a while.

 
FreakMeow
;sign10; Its OK Cat I forgive you.
 
Hypatia
Personally I don't think whether one says the Pledge or not is equal to their 'patriotism'. These people who get so disturbed by those who don't say the Pledge, or who don't place their hands over their hearts, and think it means someone isn't patriotic are being ridiculous. We're not traitors of our country if we don't do these long outdated rituals, and those who throw fits when we don't are usually theist. What do I care what they think? I don't.

When I do say the Pledge I always leave out the 'under god' part, clearly and audibly - for one thing that's the way it was written, and for another I like it to be heard that way. Anyone who doesn't like it that way doesn't have to like it. I just want them to hear it the way it's really meant to be said.

 
catman
Saying the Pledge means nothing as far as patriotism is concerned, being nothing more than lip service. I never say the 'under God' part either. I learned the thing before the 'under God' was added!
Edited by catman on 08/25/2008 01:24
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
General-Pryce
Hmmm. (cautiously treading on egg shells so as not to upset the American clientel of this establishment) but a Pledge of Allegiance strikes me as a little like something that goes on in Primary School and any thing afterwards just seems like grown ups paying lip service to, well, what? Why do you need to regularly say you are committed to the country? We don't feel the need to constantly sing "G*d save the Queen" as British subjects. It just feels like it's a boy's club with secret hand shakes.

Say the pledge once and mean it and surely you should never have to say it again. Should you even say it in the first place? I'm very patriotic and proud to be a Brit, but I don't think a pledge allegiance to The Crown would be necessary.

I do admit, I find it quite amusing when I see large numbers of people (usually it seems at Ball Games) standing with hands over their hearts. Maybe just after the war of independence it was a necessary act, but is it really relevent in today's society?

I guess I just find the whole thing pointless if you are already truely committed to your nation.

RULE BRITANNIA
BRITANNIA RULES THE WAVES
BRITONS NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, SHALL BE SLAVES

(How wonderfully outdated!)
 
seeker
GP - You are fortunate, you live in a country with a healthy paranoia about totalitarianism. Here in the US there are too many people who think it can't happen and don't realize how small a step it is from a pledge to a loyalty oath.
 
Bob of QF
seeker wrote:
GP - You are fortunate, you live in a country with a healthy paranoia about totalitarianism. Here in the US there are too many people who think it can't happen and don't realize how small a step it is from a pledge to a loyalty oath.


I agree seeker, and I'll go you one more:

there ARE folk who would happily embrace a RELIGIOUS dictator.

Anyone remember "...if This Goes On" by Robert A Heinlein?

Prophetic, maybe? I certainly hope not...
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Darxide92
i just don't say the pledge anymore- when i started becoming independent, i realized that i shouldn't lie. The pledge from my mouth, word-for-word is a lie. I cant pledge allegiance to a country i don't even support, and in the next few years I'm beginning a process to move out of here.
 
catman
I feel allegiance to it in some ways, but not in others. More to the theory of it, not the actuality of it. I feel it is my duty to do what I can to object to the more egregious abuses it is currently guilty of, if only to keep the antidemocratic forces from thinking that everyone supports them. I like nothing better than to pose a question to someone which s/he never thought about before.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Doubting Thomas
I recently attended a flag retirement ceremony put on by the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization. A flag retirement ceremony is where they take old, tattered, or faded flags and burn them in a ceremony.

The whole ceremony was one big "let's put religion into government" rally and I felt really uncomfortable. I don't mind retiring flags with a ceremony, but it's not necessary to inject religion at every turn.

At the end of the pledge of allegiance recitation, which everyone made sure to say "under God" except me, the guy running the ceremony made sure to include after "and liberty and justice for all" the words "for the born and unborn," obvious anti-abortion rhetoric.

They took down the flag that was flying on a flagpole and folded it in the "cocked hat" which is the usual way of folding the flag. However, the MC read off a statement saying that the 13 folds of the flag do not stand for the 13 colonies. He then read off what he beleived the 13 folds stood for, one of which was a mention of God, and another later on was a mention of Jesus. So obviously if you're an atheist, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu, the flag does not stand for you.

There was also a recitation of the "Our Father" prayer, and during the burning of the retired flags several patriotic/religious patriotic songs were played. Before ending the ceremony, everyone (but me) sang "God Bless America."

Somehow I made it through the ceremony without rolling my eyes or smirking, but being in the company of such ultra-right wing red state Christian conservatives made me very uncomfortable.
 
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