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Thousands of Germans Leave Catholic Church
Hypatia
http://www.telegr...hurch.html

In one diocese alone, Rottenburg-Stuttgart, by mid December 17,659 had turned their back on the Church, compared to 4,563 for the whole of 2009, according to new research by the Frankfurter Rundschau newspaper and the DPA press agency.


"I have never experienced anything like this since my ordination in 1969," said Bishop Friedhelm Hofmann of Wurzburg, adding that "every single departure is one too many".

The bishop suggested that the exodus was linked to the sex and corruption scandals that have blighted the Catholic Church this year both in Germany and abroad.

The desertation poses potential financial problems for the Church – under German law a recognised member of a church can donate some of their taxes to the institution, so if people renounce their membership the flow of money diminishes.


And not surprisingly:

It also appears that many disenchanted Catholics are turning to the Protestant church - the diocese of Badan said the number of Catholics converting grew by 20 per cent in 2010.
 
Skeeve
I was wondering when this would happen.

It's sad that it's not happening with more frequency.

Protect a pedophile for Jesus must be a strong message for them.
 
comfortable
If one abandons "eternal truth" for a different "eternal truth" - can one be trusted to keep one's oath on any matter?
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The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.
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Men are sheep in credulity, but wolves for conformity.
 
Hypatia
comfortable wrote:
If one abandons "eternal truth" for a different "eternal truth" - can one be trusted to keep one's oath on any matter?


I think so. It's a far jump from changing ones values, regardless of what they're called, to being deemed untrustworthy. That alone, to me, doesn't mean someone's word can't be trusted.

From there, it can depend on the person and the situation.
 
comfortable
Hmmmmm..... Okay, Hypatia.

But I was thinking of the religious who protest loudly that they are wedded to an eternal principle and eternal law - who then change sides.

Kinda like the Italians switching sides in WW-II.

I know it's human, but I don't think it's trustworthy.

The greater the importance of the "principles" one abandons, the less trustworthy IMHO.

If I say I like the ABC company, as an employee; but company XYZ offers me twice the paycheck - I'm not abandoning one of my "life's principles" to change employers.

But if I say I'm faithful to my wife which is very important in my life, and then leave her for some strange but attractive woman, I don't think I could be considered trustworthy.

Aren't these sheeple supposed to put all of their eggs into the one religious basket? Isn't it supposed to be The Most Important Thing in their lives?

Just asking ;-)
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The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.
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Men are sheep in credulity, but wolves for conformity.
 
Bob of QF
I've see the phenomena before-- many of these godbots are pretty flexible which flavor of kool-aid they drink, so long as it's kool-aid of the correct temperature.

That is? So long as the kool-aid purports to be some sort of 'christian' flavor, then they often don't really care if it's purple, blue, red or green flavor. These sorts are not bothered by the details, the majority of which they ignore anyway.

For evidence of ignoring, look at the birth statistics of catholics in the US; only slightly higher average than nationally.

So, either American catholics are not having sex (possible) as often as average, or they are using some form of birth control (more likely). They are living their lives as they like, ignoring the details like the "contraceptives are forbidden" rule.

In 5 years of back-and-forth on Topix, I've discovered that the majority of godbots don't even >>know<< the sordid details of their religion-- I've pointed them out, and they either refuse to believe or they say.... "so?" not caring at all.

So it does not surprise me that given the slap-in-the-face of child-raping priesthood, they would simply start drinking kool-aid of a slightly different flavor.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
seeker
Comfortable has an interesting point though. I could see people leaving the Church because of its corruption but much of Catholic doctrine is anathema to Protestants so a Catholic would be giving up a lot of closely held beliefs about things like the divinity of Mary and various saints, purgatory, penance etc. These are major shifts.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Bob of QF
Re: "the most important thing" issue as brought up by Comfortable & Seeker.

You'd think so, right?

In my experience coming out of the christian circles, I see the majority just play along with the religion they were introduced to as children.

Certainly, it's a major factor of their self-image.

But they >>never<< let it get in the way of them doing what they want to do. Ever.

Moreover, I've known quite a number of catholics who identified with being catholic as a sort of self-identity, not unlike being Jewish.

But they never let that identify interfere with their actual lives.

In fact? I would bet that the majority of folk who left catholicism continue to refer to themselves as "catholic". Even while attending protestant churches.

I suspect that they see a disconnect between the institution and the fanciful-myth they've built up in their minds.

So they physically leave as a protest, but remain mentally catholics.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
seeker
Bob - I've never referred to it as 'the most important thing' nor, as far as I can see, has comfortable. He only commented that a group of people who profess to have deep seated beliefs all to readily cede them and tacitly adopt beliefs that are completely different.

I would agree that few Catholics are really so deeply involved that they have more than passing acquaintance with Catholic Doctrine but that is precisely the point comfortable was making. How does one trust a person who professes a belief but doesn't really know its doctrines or switches doctrines so readily.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
comfortable
Yep. That's pretty much where I was coming from.

Anyhow - it was just a throw-away comment on an earlier post. No need to get into it too far.

Bob has a great point, which I can attest to.
When I was 24 years old, I was visiting my Dad and step-mother, who were admonishing me to attend church with them. I asked my step-mother "What does your church doctrine say about (so and so, I forget what it was)?" Her answer was "I don't know." So I pressed on: "But how can you sit in church and say you believe in it, when you don't know what it's professing?"

She became a bit angry and shot back "I don't know! AND, I don't want to know!"

There you have it.
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The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.
.
Men are sheep in credulity, but wolves for conformity.
 
Bob of QF
comfortable wrote:
She became a bit angry and shot back "I don't know! AND, I don't want to know!"
There you have it.


Indeed-- there you have the vast majority of all religious people the world-over.

Religion is like a comfortable robe for them, which they put on occasionally and it helps them tell themselves who they think they are. Rarely, if ever, do they look at the cloth of the robe, or go through it's pockets...

Wink

And seeker? I misunderstood your comment wherein I thought you agreed with Comfortable's final statement, but no matter, I was just using it as a transition into my point anyway. I apologize if you took offense. Not my intent at all.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
comfortable
Bob of QF wrote:
...Religion is like a comfortable robe for them, which they put on occasionally and it helps them tell themselves who they think they are. Rarely, if ever, do they look at the cloth of the robe, or go through it's pockets...

Wow!

Very well-written. What a beautiful analogy.
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The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.
.
Men are sheep in credulity, but wolves for conformity.
 
Hypatia
comfortable wrote:
Hmmmmm..... Okay, Hypatia.

But I was thinking of the religious who protest loudly that they are wedded to an eternal principle and eternal law - who then change sides.

Kinda like the Italians switching sides in WW-II.

I know it's human, but I don't think it's trustworthy.

The greater the importance of the "principles" one abandons, the less trustworthy IMHO.

If I say I like the ABC company, as an employee; but company XYZ offers me twice the paycheck - I'm not abandoning one of my "life's principles" to change employers.

But if I say I'm faithful to my wife which is very important in my life, and then leave her for some strange but attractive woman, I don't think I could be considered trustworthy.

Aren't these sheeple supposed to put all of their eggs into the one religious basket? Isn't it supposed to be The Most Important Thing in their lives?

Just asking ;-)
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I knew what you meant alright. Your examples take us from one end of the spectrum right to the other, when anywhere in between lies every opinion based on each individual’s own life values. Sure, I agree that depending on the life convictions one might abandon for another can be such that it would give just about anyone cause to question how and to what degree that person’s judgment can be trusted. But to me that still doesn’t necessarily make them untrustworthy.

Because each of us will usually consider our own changes to be just I see it as a mere matter of personal opinion whether one person’s change is really any more or less questionable than anyone else’s, much less whether or not it makes them any less ‘trustworthy’, regardless of how much they may have touted their prior convictions.

Just because someone trades a set of values I may consider ridiculous for another that I may also consider ridiculous doesn’t make them any less trustworthy than the person who takes on a ‘new’ value system I consider less or not at all offensive.

I think these sorts of life value changes makes me question other things about people more than whether the changes make them less trustworthy. I’d still question why it is they think they need to look outside themselves and into something like religion to fill whatever void they’re trying to fill, for example. But most likely I was wondering that to begin with.
 
comfortable
Excellent post, Hypatia.

I agree with you. It was just sort of a 'throwaway' comment.

Like the word "God" - "trustworthy" is a term too broad and subjective to nail down as a black and white issue.

If my shorts from the dryer are 'damp', does that mean they're too wet to wear or just feel ooooky for the first 10 minutes and then be fine?

If getting some spray while riding a boat makes one "all wet", then what word can we use for being completely immersed by falling overboard. Isn't that "all wet" too?

Ambiguity, the devil's playground !
Smile
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The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.
.
Men are sheep in credulity, but wolves for conformity.
 
seeker
Bob of QF wrote:

And seeker? I misunderstood your comment wherein I thought you agreed with Comfortable's final statement, but no matter, I was just using it as a transition into my point anyway. I apologize if you took offense. Not my intent at all.


No worries.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Bob of QF
comfortable wrote:
Excellent post, Hypatia.

I agree with you. It was just sort of a 'throwaway' comment.

Like the word "God" - "trustworthy" is a term too broad and subjective to nail down as a black and white issue.

If my shorts from the dryer are 'damp', does that mean they're too wet to wear or just feel ooooky for the first 10 minutes and then be fine?

If getting some spray while riding a boat makes one "all wet", then what word can we use for being completely immersed by falling overboard. Isn't that "all wet" too?

Ambiguity, the devil's playground !
Smile


Of course, "all wet" can easily be applied to someone's argument, indicating it's not an effective one.

But, my favorite "all wet" phrase is not something one mentions in polite company.

Smile
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
catman
Well, have no qualms about mentioning it here! Smile
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Hypatia
Yeah Bob, don't hold back because of me - I'm curious too.

No dirty mind here, just curious... Smile
 
comfortable
No dirty mind??!!??

Then what's the point?

Me, I'm just your average pervert. For the last 35 years I'd rather give my wife oral sex than 'normal' intercourse (whatever that is).

My only complaint is that she bathes too often.

Napoleon supposedly sent Josephine a message from the battlefield which sums it up neatly for me (and teaches me that I'm not alone):
Je retournerai en trois jours. Ne baignez pas.
(Home in three days. Don't wash.)


TMI?
Pfft
(can I get arrested for mis-using a smiley?)
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The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.
.
Men are sheep in credulity, but wolves for conformity.
 
Hypatia
comfortable wrote:
No dirty mind??!!??

Then what's the point?

Me, I'm just your average pervert. For the last 35 years I'd rather give my wife oral sex than 'normal' intercourse (whatever that is).

My only complaint is that she bathes too often.

Napoleon supposedly sent Josephine a message from the battlefield which sums it up neatly for me (and teaches me that I'm not alone):
Je retournerai en trois jours. Ne baignez pas.
(Home in three days. Don't wash.)


TMI?
Pfft
(can I get arrested for mis-using a smiley?)


LOL!!!! I'll never (be able to) look at that smiley the same way again.

Oh, my mind definitely has it's dirty (and also dark) side - I've even made myself blush.

So see, it's a perfectly useful mind. Smile
 
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