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Osama bin Laden Dead!
Hypatia
Nearly 10 years later, and we finally got him.

No doubt you've all heard by now. Links to follow. Too excited to bother right now.
 
catman
I think it's great, but we'll have to see what follows.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Hypatia
Yes, by no means does this spell 'the end'. bin Laden was but one major operative in Al Qaida.

Also, the concern for Americans abroad deepens, among other things.

Oh - a link: http://www.msnbc....?gt1=43001
Edited by Hypatia on 05/02/2011 01:06
 
Theory_Execution
Very strange story though, and with the way it has unfolded it would provide a host of tittilating fantasies to all the 911 troofers.

The strangest thing for me is that he was hauled up in essentially a fortified home, in a Pakistani garisson town. How was it that no Pakistani official ever deemed to look into that site?

I think they will be facing some very serious allegations over the next few months.

This whole burrial at sea thing will prove difficult for the official record, but I believe the best explanation for it is simply he was tortured when detained and to save the troops involved the order was given to dispose of the body.

Now, to go find a video of Bill O'Rly and other asshats talking about it.
 
seeker
I have to wonder how long we knew about this place bin Laden was living in. The timing is odd to say the least.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
Very interesting indeed. Found this:

http://www.telegr...brain.html

Say they had DNA from a dead relative and the compound was under observation for months.

*edited to fix link
Edited by Skeeve on 05/02/2011 15:06
 
Theory_Execution
Also another article on the speedy turn around of those DNA results, linked to another of America's trained enemies.

http://www.wired....3/12/61614
 
catman
I only hope that Osama doesn't turn up alive after the US gov't says they got him. That would destroy what little credibility it still has.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Hypatia
catman wrote:
I only hope that Osama doesn't turn up alive after the US gov't says they got him. That would destroy what little credibility it still has.


I hope not too.

But as long as it is true, I'm wondering whether there will be conspiracy theorists who won't ever believe it.

History tells me there will be plenty of those, no doubt.
 
Cynic
seeker wrote:
I have to wonder how long we knew about this place bin Laden was living in. The timing is odd to say the least.


Why is that?
 
Theory_Execution
I have heard some comment that the timing is brilliant for a second term for Obama, who in essence has [edit] not [edit] achieved much in his reign. He rode to the white house on the back of sentiments of change, but from what I see of american news and politics, the rich are still getting their breaks, and workers rights are being walked over.

There will no doubt be many conspiracy theorists theorizing conspiratorially, specifically around this aspect of traditional muslim burial at sea - http://www.metron...sea-burial - seems like a rush explanation and perfect execution for a conspiracy where no body is present.

I reserve judgement at the moment, if he is dead it doesnt really matter, the fundamentalist lives on strengthened by a new martyr.

[edit note] I think the CIA was deleting my words as I typed Smile

[edit two] Typed 'thing' instead of 'think', its getting late here.
Edited by Theory_Execution on 05/02/2011 19:07
 
Bob of QF
I suppose I'm the odd man out, but I was, for the most part, simply sickened by the reaction of the newsies and the interviewed sheep late last night.

Obama's speech drew the proper somber tone, I thought-- and I appreciated that he re-emphasized the US is >>not<< at war with Islam.

Not that it will do any good-- the sickening dancing in the streets was more than I could stand, and I eventually turned the TV off.

Remember the rhetoric and hate-speech (in the US), at the alleged dancing of the islamic fundamentalists, after 9/11? Remember the feigned indignation by all the talking-heads?

But, it's apparently just peachy-keen, when >>we<< kill someone we hated, to go dance like it's christmas morning...

*meh*

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Laden was a nice guy, or was anything other than a complete and utter terrorist.

And death is probably better for everyone concerned, than incarceration where he could continue to be a rallying figure to the fundie-terrorists.

But you step on a cockroach-- you don't celebrate with song-and-dance when you end it's existence.

The celebration of the death of another human being, is what terrorists frequently do.

I think we ought to take the higher moral ground, here...

... but what the hell do I know? I also think lying is one of the worst things imaginable, so I really don't understand politics very much, I suppose.

*sigh*

With any luck, Obama can milk this "victory" for all it's worth, and get some much-needed reforms through the do-nothing congress...
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Kowboy
i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/Trebruchet/KDssc.jpg
 
Theory_Execution
Why do you suppose you are the odd man out Bob? I havent expressed any glee in the mans death.

I read a comment from an American im guessing (cant recall where, was most likely in the comments of one of my above links) which reads like.... It is a good day, an evil man who is responsible for hundreds of thousands if not millions of people is dead....

Errrmmmmm the confirmed number we have is around 3,000. If we tally up US innocent kills to Osama lead terrorists the US outstrips him by many orders of magnitude. There is also the little mentioned story that America created these groups through training offered by the CIA and through funding of arabs during the Cold War.

I agree Bob that politics is synonymous with lying. I do not trust anything a politician says because they have no good reason to tell the truth, it is not in their interests to do so.

Another comment I noted. If the CIA had known about this address for months, it makes me wonder why a month or so ago, the UK commited to donating 600mil to Pakistan, in spite of knowing that the money made its way to groups that blow up girl schools. Could it have been a pay-off for the details of this place?
 
Bob of QF
Kowboy wrote:
i136.photobucket.com/albums/q186/Trebruchet/KDssc.jpg


I'm a little ashamed to admit this: I like this cartoon.

I first saw it on theCHIVE, yesterday, and it's still funny today.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Bob of QF
Theory_Execution wrote:
Why do you suppose you are the odd man out Bob? I havent expressed any glee in the mans death.


Nobody here did, and I apologize if I implied that anyone did... my comment was referring to the celebratory activities of the people interviewed by the news on the night of the announcement.

Sorry if there was any confusion.

I just think a more somber tone would be appropriate, considering-- again, I'm referring to the external news outlets.

Theory_Execution wrote:
I read a comment from an American im guessing (cant recall where, was most likely in the comments of one of my above links) which reads like.... It is a good day, an evil man who is responsible for hundreds of thousands if not millions of people is dead....

Errrmmmmm the confirmed number we have is around 3,000. If we tally up US innocent kills to Osama lead terrorists the US outstrips him by many orders of magnitude. There is also the little mentioned story that America created these groups through training offered by the CIA and through funding of arabs during the Cold War.


Indeed: this man and his followers are directly responsible for the death of millions-- the 3,000 is just what we know with regards to the specific 9/11 attacks themselves. His activities and that of his group, have killed many more than that over the years, the majority of whom were innocents-in-the-wrong-place.

Theory_Execution wrote:
I agree Bob that politics is synonymous with lying. I do not trust anything a politician says because they have no good reason to tell the truth, it is not in their interests to do so.

Another comment I noted. If the CIA had known about this address for months, it makes me wonder why a month or so ago, the UK commited to donating 600mil to Pakistan, in spite of knowing that the money made its way to groups that blow up girl schools. Could it have been a pay-off for the details of this place?


Now that is interesting.

If so? I think they should spend some effort locating, and eliminating from power, the people responsible for aiding and abetting Laudin's hiding in plain sight.... let no person profit from this, says I.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Hypatia
Bob of QF wrote:
I suppose I'm the odd man out, but I was, for the most part, simply sickened by the reaction of the newsies and the interviewed sheep late last night.

Obama's speech drew the proper somber tone, I thought-- and I appreciated that he re-emphasized the US is >>not<< at war with Islam.

Not that it will do any good-- the sickening dancing in the streets was more than I could stand, and I eventually turned the TV off.

Remember the rhetoric and hate-speech (in the US), at the alleged dancing of the islamic fundamentalists, after 9/11? Remember the feigned indignation by all the talking-heads?

But, it's apparently just peachy-keen, when >>we<< kill someone we hated, to go dance like it's christmas morning...

*meh*

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Laden was a nice guy, or was anything other than a complete and utter terrorist.

And death is probably better for everyone concerned, than incarceration where he could continue to be a rallying figure to the fundie-terrorists.

But you step on a cockroach-- you don't celebrate with song-and-dance when you end it's existence.

The celebration of the death of another human being, is what terrorists frequently do.

I think we ought to take the higher moral ground, here...

... but what the hell do I know? I also think lying is one of the worst things imaginable, so I really don't understand politics very much, I suppose.

*sigh*

With any luck, Obama can milk this "victory" for all it's worth, and get some much-needed reforms through the do-nothing congress...


The difference here is that the dancing in the streets by the Islamic fundamentalists was done in celebration of an act of terrorism.

The dancing in the streets in the US upon the news of the death of bin Laden was done in celebration of the bringing down of the top Al Qaida ring leader - not in celebration of a terrorist act carried out by Americans. There is a difference.

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with Americans being so joyous over the death of anyone, but I think we had to know it would be this way.

What would really be something is if American citizens had shown ourselves to be on the moral high road, the way we like to make out to the rest of the world we are, and instead of the kinds of celebrations we've been seeing, would have issued a collective statement of some kind acknowledging our satisfaction in doing what we had to do - bringing bin Laden down, and then going forward with whatever healing that may bring people.

What I really don't want to see is the release of the photo of bin Laden's body. I think this would serve no real, logical purpose. First of all, anyone who isn't convinced that it's bin Laden that was killed isn't going to be able to convince themselves by looking at a photo - he isn't recognizable. Second, anyone who thinks seeing the body will help them heal and have 'closure' should just find a way, from within themselves, to move on and forward. And we won't be able to keep kids from seeing those images, no matter how hard we try, and I think the wars are ugly enough and weight heavily enough on their shoulders as well that we should be avoiding that kind of thing, and not try to disguise it in the 'healing' or 'celebrating' cloaks of lies.
 
seeker
Cynic wrote:
seeker wrote:
I have to wonder how long we knew about this place bin Laden was living in. The timing is odd to say the least.


Why is that?


Obama just cleared up the birther nonsense by releasing his long form birth certificate and that action pretty much marked the beginning of a very long election season. Republicans are in disarray with no real compelling presidential candidate on the horizon and Donald Trump's grandstanding on the birther issue was not only answered but (wait for it) trumped (I know, I know) by a reshuffling of the defense team and now this announcement.

Now the president will be able to lay claim to being a staunch defender of the realm while also giving credence to the notion that he will soon end US involvement in Afghanistan and other regions of the Middle East. Couple all this with the growing perception of Republicans as wild eyed loony economic obstructionists and the Republican platform is going to be very thin.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
seeker
Bob of QF wrote:
I suppose I'm the odd man out, but I was, for the most part, simply sickened by the reaction of the newsies and the interviewed sheep late last night.

Obama's speech drew the proper somber tone, I thought-- and I appreciated that he re-emphasized the US is >>not<< at war with Islam.

Not that it will do any good-- the sickening dancing in the streets was more than I could stand, and I eventually turned the TV off.

Remember the rhetoric and hate-speech (in the US), at the alleged dancing of the islamic fundamentalists, after 9/11? Remember the feigned indignation by all the talking-heads?

But, it's apparently just peachy-keen, when >>we<< kill someone we hated, to go dance like it's christmas morning...

*meh*

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Laden was a nice guy, or was anything other than a complete and utter terrorist.

And death is probably better for everyone concerned, than incarceration where he could continue to be a rallying figure to the fundie-terrorists.

But you step on a cockroach-- you don't celebrate with song-and-dance when you end it's existence.

The celebration of the death of another human being, is what terrorists frequently do.

I think we ought to take the higher moral ground, here...

... but what the hell do I know? I also think lying is one of the worst things imaginable, so I really don't understand politics very much, I suppose.

*sigh*

With any luck, Obama can milk this "victory" for all it's worth, and get some much-needed reforms through the do-nothing congress...


I'm with you on this Bob. Yes, Bin Laden was a bad guy who needed killing but cheering anyone's death is just, IMO, the same kind of casual attitude towards humanity that leads to the creation of guys like Bin Laden in the first place.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Cynic
My impression so far about the location he was in is that we probably knew it was a place associated with where bin Laden could be or might send his messages. But that knowing those two are possibilities isn't the same thing has knowing when to strike. Timing is everything. Strike if he's never been there or isn't there at that moment and they could have ruined their lead and connection to bin Laden's probable locations (the courier) because he'd be dead, captured, or compromised.

Whatever else bin Laden was, he wasn't stupid and they knew he'd totally reanalyze his traceability and make the necessary adjustments. He probably did that from time to time anyway and who knows how many times we or others hunting him down have triggered it in the past.

So given that, it's difficult for me to presume that we're just holding off on an attack out of sheer political expedience. Had they waited to long, they'd have lost their chance and that would have gotten out. Obama's not an idiot either and whatever one might think of his motivations going into an election year, that would have doomed him. And dooming him this cycle probably isn't easy to do. So in my opinion, the attack was authorized as soon as they had confirmation of his actually being there and sufficient information on the site to ensure a successful mission.

(The date similarity to Hitler deaths and "Mission Accomplished" speeches is interesting as well, but still not compelling enough to make me think conspiracy at this point.)

--------------------------------------

As for the overall reaction out there, yeah. I think Jon Stewart summed it up well by suggesting that he should be expressing ambivalent thoughts about celebrating the death of a man, but in this case... no. But then also Stephen Colbert followed up his jubilation by saying that he hoped never to be made so happy by someone's death again.

In general, I think the public reaction is distasteful, more or less. It's understandable and predictable, however, and "not that big a deal" for the most part. What I don't like is the equally predictable result of people who pipe up with a more sober point of view and getting chided for it as we've seen happen a few times in the media already, where their patriotism is questioned because they AREN'T going along with the crowd.
 
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