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Anything but 'atheist'
Bob of QF
Examples of religious bullying, and many famous people who are atheists.

http://www.youtub...m1NfhZ8Uc0


Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
JohnH
I have related this story here before but I think it is appropriate after viewing the above. I once spent the 20 minutes on my way to the local developing in detail my argument that god was a human construct. I entered the local and started to tell my argument to one of my cronies. His basic response was tell me something I do not know.

I respect those of you who live elsewhere for, if you are, being open about your atheism. It is easy for me.
 
seeker
Is there any way we can give Ayn Rand back?
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Bob of QF
JohnH wrote:

I have related this story here before but I think it is appropriate after viewing the above. I once spent the 20 minutes on my way to the local developing in detail my argument that god was a human construct. I entered the local and started to tell my argument to one of my cronies. His basic response was tell me something I do not know.

I respect those of you who live elsewhere for, if you are, being open about your atheism. It is easy for me.


I must tread lightly, or risk being killed.

Literally.

Xianists hereabouts are that far around the bend.

On the other paw, I seldom use the word "atheist" in public-- typically, I say (if asked) "I don't go to church anymore...haven't for years... don't see the point."

Which has the added benefit of being completely true.

If they press, and invite me to their local brand of 'christian' I give'em the lawyer's reply: "I'll think about it". And I do think about it-- I think for a split second about how I'm so not getting up early on a Sunday to go....

Grin
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
JohnH
Seeker, I do not think we should give Ayn Rand back, I think throwing her back is more appropriate.

Bob of QF, I would hate to be in your shoes. I would like to believe I would be more assertive, but I am afraid I would also be circumspect. Even where I live I am careful in some ways. An old friend who is as militantly atheist as I am gave me a very provocative anti christian t-shirt. I pick the times I wear it.
 
JDHURF
Yeah, Ayn Rand is definitely not someone I would be happy to be associated with in any form.
 
catman
Ayn Rand gives selfishness a bad name.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Theory_Execution
I dont mind Ayn Rand, shes dead, didn't kill anyone as far as I know, never raped a child, never defrauded masses of people and never expected something for nothing.

I would take her, and to stress the point that "atheism" is no real measure of a person - you can be an arse or an inspiration, the only connection is you do not hold a belief in any deity.
 
JohnH
umm, TE, you are correct. Ayn Rand may have been a confused person. But she did no evil other than professing evil beliefs. None of which were associated with a deity.
 
Theory_Execution
I dont find her beliefs to be evil, daft or fatally flawed is more appropriate.

Afterall, someone has to clean John Galt's toilet.
 
cheshiredragon
This video makes me sick. I have a few plans that will out me, but I am damn glad to do so. I already had a conflict this past weekend. Not only with a church goer but also with my son. He isn't even 8yrs old and already believes that satan is why people are mean. I thought I could save him from this bullshit, but now I realize it is like trying to remove a railroad spike with tweezers. Sad
That's right, I said it...
 
Theory_Execution
You can save him, spend time with him, show him new things, inspire an inquisitive nature in him.

Even if he does fall into it for a while, he will be equiped with the tools to get out.
 
cheshiredragon
Him and his mother live with her parents. She hates it to say the least. Normally she doesn't go to church and just lives a typical "I believe in God, but don't go to church" life. However, living with her parents they are absorbed by religious life and her dad is such an asshole that even if she is feeling sick he makes snide/passive aggressive comments about her not going to church. It's fscking sick. I remember I was down there on Sept 11th this year and I over heard her dad saying to my son that the people that crashed the planes into the towers that there god was fake and only in their heads. It pissed me off and I wanted to go out in the living room and say "same goes for your god." If they were at my house believe me I would have said something.
The only thing I can really do is hope that he comes to his senses later on in life when he finally stops believing every thing an adult tells him is true. Tragically, right now the only social life he has outside of school and the scouts is church. Everyone he knows is up to their eyeballs in Jesus. The reason I grew up atheist is because I never went to church and I grew up in an area where the majority of people didn't believe in Jesus. I didn't even know who Jesus was until I was 15.
That's right, I said it...
 
catman
CD: If it will make you feel any better, when I was 19 I converted to Catholicism of my own free will (I was raised as a Protestant). Three years later I had recovered. Hopefully, he will get over god-belief as I did (hopefully without becoming a Catholic first).
 
Photon
ha ha, I have a picture of my whole family at the Catholic confirmation of my sister, brother, and mother. I'm the 4-year old screaming and kicking while the priest and family smile as was expected. It was a sign of things to come, methinks.
 
cheshiredragon
I'd love that to be my son, Photon.
Catman, You will need to explain to me how one is raised religious and then denies it? I was raised without a god. Therefore I do not understand how one can believe and then reject. This is one thing I really need an understanding of. If I can get into my son's mind and understand why he believes and then divert it in a logical way then I can possibly sway him from these jack hammered/ridiculous beliefs.
That's right, I said it...
 
catman
Considering your son's living situation, I don't know that it would be a good idea to work on him right now. It might make life hard for him. I'd say wait a few years. My parents were not very religious and became less so as I was growing up, but my grandparents were.

In addition, it might be that he will lose his religion on his own. That's what I did, but I was about 22 at the time. I think that converting to Catholicism helped it along, since there was so much to find fault with. The ex cathedra statements by the Pope concerning abortion and birth control were the last straw for me.
 
Theory_Execution
I used to be a believer, I was actually a pain in the arse believer.

My parents are of Irish heritage, and Catholic persuasion (although they dont really go to church) - I do not think my dad is really a believer, I dont think he cares at all.

However, I went to Roman Catholic nursery (to 4 years old), primary school (4 years to 11 I think) and secondary school/college (11/12 to 17/18).

I would get annoyed when other children would not show respect when we were reciting prayers - I found mass and assemblies boring, but I still believed in God - I still like the smell of the primary schools church. Last time I was there was for the death of a friends remaining parent - that was during college I think.

I found the idea of a limitless buddy looking out for me very comforting, the idea of 'nothing is impossible' used to entertain me.

I think I was an atheist in the first year of secondary school - the RE teacher we had was talking about how a war can be Just, although the ten commandments say murder is wrong - so I read the Bible, realized it was shite - started to look into a bit of origins, happened upon Aten what I thought was the first push for a monotheistic religion and decided yeeeaahhh this is all bull-shit isn't it.

It is around that time that I read about the practice of snow-balling amongst the upper echelons of egyptian culture.
 
Bob of QF
cheshiredragon wrote:

I'd love that to be my son, Photon.
Catman, You will need to explain to me how one is raised religious and then denies it? I was raised without a god. Therefore I do not understand how one can believe and then reject. This is one thing I really need an understanding of. If I can get into my son's mind and understand why he believes and then divert it in a logical way then I can possibly sway him from these jack hammered/ridiculous beliefs.


I was literally raised as your son is now-- if the church doors were open, we were there. Pentecostal godbottery at it's "finest".

When I was a senior in HS, my parents finally had had enough of fundie-godbottery-- they had rejected 90% of funny-mentalist godbottery by that time already-- no hell, satan is a myth, etc. But Jewsus was still the main man, and gawd was still the prime mover of the universe. But they switched to a main-line religion, and started going to a very liberal (theistic speaking) church (United Methodist). Naturally, I was dragged along.

With me, it took a bit longer, but I came around to that view, then gradually, I rejected the divinity of Jewsus (he was just another charismatic prophet-- not failing to recognize the role of Paul who is the one who really shaped christianity initially, to be further shaped by Constantine in 300ish). And I also rejected the dalliance of gawd in daily lives-- I used to make fun of those Uber-Kristians who literally prayed for a parking spot near the door...

... It took a real deep study of the origins of the bible to break me out of that final near-deist state. I had already considered the bible was just a journal of believer's attempts to understand the concept 'god'. As such, it wasn't consistent ore even necessarily factual. Just the thoughts and ideas of those who came before, and nothing more than that-- nothing about it was sacred, for example. Thus I was free to accept or reject anything it might say, on the individual merits of each idea (as presented).

About 5 years ago, I finally quit even trying to believe in a deist-god. I realized there was no point in even acknowledging such a non-player.

The closing argument was this (after the Nth time of reading Pascal's Last Joke*) if there is a god out there? It's likely that it is logical and rational-- divinely so.

Such a logical and rational being would have left behind definitive proof of it's existence, if that was important.

That there is no such proof, logically means that it is not important to either acknowledge or believe in such a being.

And that was the last of my faith.. dribbling away into the empty aether Smile

-------------------------------------------------

Here's the thing: give your son the best of you. Your time, your attitude, your life-experiences. Don't make a big deal about it, but don't hide from him the fact that you are an atheist (unbeliever). This will bother him, trust me-- kids cannot help but be concerned with their parents, even if those concerns are poisoned by religion.

This bothering will continue to make him think about it-- and if you fail to be a monster? This will create a cognitive disconnect in his head: "they tell me atheists are satanic. Satan is evil. But my dad's not evil, and he's an atheist...."

Give him time... he will get there, eventually.

And?

I will definitely >>not<< pray for him.

Grin Rofl


_________________

* as I refer to Pascal's Wager-- Blaise Pascal was anything but an idiot. He would have easily see how simple it is to refute his argument, I'd like to think. Thus, that he left it un-refuted, has to be as a joke.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
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