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Four Dead in Ohio
JohnH
This is the 42nd anniversary of the Kent State killings. I personally was in the army reserve at the time in order to not be sent to Vietnam. It could have been me shooting at those people.

Violence toward others should be reserved for the most extraordinary of circumstances. We americans seem to find the use of violence far to easy. I would like to believe that I personally will only become violent in the need to protect my family. I do not and will not believe that a nation should become violent for any reason.

Vietnam was not a casual event. It was associated with an american need to dominate. It failed as our excursions into Afghanistan and Iraq have failed. Americans can kill but they cannot control. We should be shamed by the readiness with which we kill in the belief that we can by that means control.
Edited by JohnH on 05/04/2012 14:53
 
Theory_Execution
I think Americas general attitude stinks, and I think war is a byproduct of it. The American dream (everything is up for grabs) which inspired the American Drive (an attitude that every american should aim for the top) which has created the American Attitude (if you are not at the top, or are struggling to get to the top, this is because you are lazy with no self respect and hence not deserving of mine) I think, has fathered the American Foreign policies of looking at other nations as 'lesser people' that need to be saved and given Democracy and cured of their laziness.

Yet, I have never been to the US, what do I know.
 
seeker
I think we should kill all violent people violently to teach them a lesson.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
Death is the best deterrent.
 
Kowboy
I interviewed Alan Canfora, one of the shooting victims, in 2008 for a history class.
 
Theory_Execution
Did he get shot multiple times? I know very little of this story.

Was anyone ever charged? Or was it another unfortunate government decision with noone to blame?
 
JohnH
TE, no one was blamed in the sense that no one was ever charged for anything. You know the drill "maybe it should not of happened but no one is at fault, they acted in the cause of the government and therefore cannot be blamed". One student was permanently paralyzed by the shootings.

One should also not forget that 10 days later at Jackson State University in Mississippi 2 were killed during a protest of the war in Vietnam and what happened at Kent State. If I remember correctly the students killed were in a dormitory and not even participating in the demonstration. This event has been largely ignored because Jackson State is an historically african american college.

This last comment should probably be in the thread I started about how violent americans are but it seems more appropriate here.

The entirety of my adult life (I was born in 1946) has been marred by the fact of my government engaging in war. Theoretically in my name but that government never asked my permission in any way. My name and person are dishonored by this fact.
 
Theory_Execution
Which is why I cannot understand why more politicians are not killed in America. You have acess to guns and loads and loads of war veterans who have been shit on by the politicians.
 
JohnH
TE, the answer is somewhat simple. Those of us who might kill a politician are for the most part non violent people. Those who are violent in nature enjoy the constant warfare.

I will admit I am very strongly considering buying a rifle. I think I have settled on a .243 caliber. I have always had difficulty dealing with recoil.
 
Theory_Execution
That was my sneaking suspicion, not enjoying the facts though.

In Prague, the people were unhappy with their social representation in 1618 (the second of its kind, but known simply as The Defenestration of Prague). There were large groups of Protestants who had been given permission for essentially Freedom of Religion via a letter from their King. However, the Catholics didn't like the competition and managed to persuaded the King into putting his name to a second letter. This second letter removed the previous rights awarded.

The Catholic leaders were accosted on the matter, and on finding the culprit, the Protestant representatives lifted them skyward, motioned to a nearby window and ejected them forcibly.

Some have said they survived the 70ft fall.

Here is a quote from the incident, the Protestant talking of the letter which removed their civil liberties:
...we came to a unanimous agreement among ourselves that, regardless of any loss of life and limb, honor and property, we would stand firm, with all for one and one for all... nor would we be subservient, but rather we would loyally help and protect each other to the utmost, against all difficulties.


Beats standing outside a bank with a poster in my opinion, but I see why the modern mob has little chance of doing such a proper thing in these times - lots of money is spent, and time too, in ensuring those responsible for all the 'fuck' in the world are never publically named.
 
seeker
TE - One of the reasons that you don't see those kinds of mobs in this country is that politicians have been real good at dividing our country into small pockets of dissatisfaction with particular issues. No one faction, like the anti-abortion militants or Christian Identity militants, gets enough traction to be really dangerous and they become too radicalized to ever work together.

I think that is why Occupy Wall Street is so ominous to certain political groups. They have the potential to create a cause that a large proportion of people can get behind.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
 
Theory_Execution
Its not just politics, as civilization has grown, so have the many choices open to people expanded.

As such, there are more things for people to get involved in and to fight for. People just need to think long and hard on what is the next great injustice and work to break it down.

I think marriage is that injustice. I think it is disgusting that single productive members of society have to pay more than their married equivalents in terms of taxes. Governments should not be in the business of marriage.
 
Robert
Hey TE,

TE wrote: "Governments should not be in the business of marriage."

The first time I saw this in one of your old posts I kind of snickered. After thinking about it for awhile, though, it kind of started to make sense. It just might solve a few problems if governments actually did get out of the marriage business. It definitely is food for thought...
 
Kowboy
Theory_Execution wrote:

Did he get shot multiple times? I know very little of this story.

Was anyone ever charged? Or was it another unfortunate government decision with noone to blame?


TE:

Canfora was shot through the wrist and has apparently made a full recovery. He's a democratic liberal.

There were civil suits brought.
 
JohnH
If I read wikipedia correctly the civil suit netted the plaintiffs court costs and a statement from the defendants that it should not have happened.
 
Cynic
Robert wrote:

Hey TE,

TE wrote: "Governments should not be in the business of marriage."

The first time I saw this in one of your old posts I kind of snickered. After thinking about it for awhile, though, it kind of started to make sense. It just might solve a few problems if governments actually did get out of the marriage business. It definitely is food for thought...



Because government control is good when things are going your way and bad when they aren't, or for some other, less self-serving reason?

Welcome back.
 
Theory_Execution
Hey Robert, I would like more people to push for it. Stop wasting time fighting over whether the government should allow this pairing but not that, they should just do away with all of those non-business partnership rules.

Kowboy, I wonder if that happened again today, would there be a settlement of a substantial sum in the courts? Or would they claim the particular people attacked were terroritsts?
 
Robert
Hi TE,

TE wrote: "Hey Robert, I would like more people to push for it. Stop wasting time fighting over whether the government should allow this pairing but not that, they should just do away with all of those non-business partnership rules."

Your solution certainly would solve a lot of problems, in my opinion. Many Christians, Jews and Muslims feel that marriage can only exist between a man and a woman and that there is no other definition. We can't vote for gay marriage because we believe that such a thing simply does not exist. We would be lying if we said otherwise. With this solution, however, people would be free to choose their own lifestyle without requiring the approval of a majority of the voters. Christians, atheists, homosexuals and heterosexuals could live out their lives without violating the conscience of others. They could marry whomever they wished without needing the blessing of another segment of society.

TE for President.
 
Robert
Hi Cynic,

Cynic wrote: "Because government control is good when things are going your way and bad when they aren't, or for some other, less self-serving reason?"

For the most part, I want to stay out of other people's lives and let them do their own thing. Although I will always try to persuade others to see things my way, I have no desire to harrass them into doing so. I also believe that government should stay out of our affairs as much as possible. Too many regulations on the books as it is.
 
Theory_Execution
Robert,
I would have some difficulty with the 'birthers' if I were to run for US president - my Birmingham (UK) accent would give me away, the Birmingham, England birth certificate would seal my fate.

Another damaging thing that marriage does to a country, is related to immigration. The government in the UK have been leading stings on rogue pastors/priests/registra officials to rid the UK of marriage-for-citizenship scams.

Now, being of Irish descent, who most definately entered the UK illegally, I do not have a problem with immigration - but people having to live-a-lie (remain in a false marriage for two years) to demonstrate they can be a productive member of society seems a bit arse-about-tit to me.
 
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