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g0at
RayvenAlandria
My complaint is not that Tim joined up and then betrayed his country by breaking his oath. Perhaps he really did have some kind of profound personality shift while in bootcamp. For argument's sake, let's say that scenario is true. I would not resent someone for changing and turning into a pacifist. It can happen.

What I don't like is someone who then starts insulting others and calls military members "murderers", makes youtube videos about it, and treats people like crap when they try to defend themselves against those insults. That is not a pacifist, that is an abusive asshole. ( a real pacifist is not that hostile or hateful...hint hint)

It's okay that Tim wiggled his way out of duty, it's even okay if he hates the military, it's NOT okay if he spouts hateful shit at military people and behaves abusively. Regardless of what he claims, I know for a fact he did/does so, because he did it to me.

Readers, put your philosophical viewpoints about the war aside, that is not what this is about. This is about Tim's personal abuse of others who do not share his anti-war sentiments. This is about the personal abuse of those who choose to join the military and do their duty. (or their families) Stop focusing on the smokescreen and notice the real issue.
 
General-Pryce
I haven't really read much of this thread but get the jist.

For me, war is a very bizarre topic. I don't see members of the armed forces as murderers ON CONDITION that the war is about defence and protection. An invasion is another issue. Soldiers in an unprovoked invasion- such as the Nazis in World War 2- I would say are murderers as they are not acting in defence but offence.

Iraq is a grey area, did we invade or are we protecting? We'll find millions of people to back each viewpoint. I personally don't think the war was just, simply on the grounds that it came a little out of left field and felt like Bush simply finishing his father's work. the war relating to the location of Osama Bin Laden would have been a much more just conflict as it was being performed in a defensive, protective manor.

I still don't think one person has the right to take another's life, and I especially see the death penalty as legalised murder, but war is full of complexities, I would rather (and I'd like to think the soldiers) would rather have a less violent method of combat. Could the use of tranquilising agents be incorporated a bit more? Wouldn't always work, and the prisons might get a bit full, but surely it's worth looking into.

All in all, even with anti-war view points, I have to have a certain ammount of respect for people willing to risk their lives to protect their country and their loved ones, it's a basic human response.
Edited by General-Pryce on 12/01/2008 13:55
 
Hypatia
g0at wrote:
Hypatia wrote:
I do have to interject here that anyone who enlists, or who has enlisted, in the military in the last 7 years - at least - must know, has to know - that the chances they'll be sent into combat are very high.

If sent into combat the chances a soldier will have to fire a weapon upon someone are, I think, fairly high. If a soldier kills someone, depending on anyone's own viewpoint, it could be called murder. However, personally, it's hard for me to look at it quite that way when one purposely enlists in the military during wartime.


Do you run by the same name on stickam? I don't ever recall saying that to anyone in that room. In my line of work almost everyone I work with is ex-military. The fire service is a para-military organization. To say that I have this negative stigma towards people in the military is just untrue. I am done having this conversation , I don't really feel like defending myself it is really kind of laughable.

To clear a simple mistake you made in your logic as the above poster mentions. I, at the time of enlistment was a different person. I was willing to kill for my country. I later changed after going through the system and became an atheist and a much different person. So, to say that I joined not wanting to be a murderer is simply not true.

I refuse allow people to believe that the miltiary service men and woman are protecting my freedoms by murdering those in iraq.

She acts as if I burn flags in my room, and go to military funerals with signs and pickets. As if I hate the people in the military lol. I made a video series on my youtube channel, that you can voluntarily view or click out of. You have to go out of your way to watch it. Disagree with me? Why don't you argue your points rather than ad hom me.


Okay, I haven't read page 3 of this thread yet, but I'm going to post a response to this now because g0at quoted my previous post, and the first line is obviously intended for me.

No, I have never, ever, not even one time been to, or in, Stickam. I've thought about it, but haven't been there yet (if ever). So, unless one can be there by osmosis (?), or unless there has been someone else who has been there with the user name 'Hypatia', then the answer is no. It is, after all, entirely possible any number of users in any number of places might use the name 'Hypatia'. I've found it seems to be somewhat popular.

Anyway, as to the rest of your post following the first sentence - I'm not at all certain who you're addressing.
 
Skeeve
When was the last time American troops "protected" the country?
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
RayvenAlandria
Hypatia, his comprehension skills are lacking. He accused me of writing emails I didn't write, now he seems to think you and I are the same person. He doesn't pay enough attention to notice that people in the same thread have different user names and are different people.
 
Cynic
One could argue everyday -- it's their existence that does the protecting.
 
RayvenAlandria
Skeeve wrote:
When was the last time American troops "protected" the country?


Like I said, put your anti-war sentiments aside and notice the real issue here.

This not about the current war and whether it's justified, it's about the way Tim treats those who are in the military and his claims that he never treats them badly. I know those claims are lies because he treated me badly when I tried to defend the people he was ranting about and calling "murderers" .


If it weren't for the military protecting this country many people would have died from the anarchy that occurred after Katrina. I know because I was there. If it were not for the military you would not have the freedom to be a smartass. In a land without the military or law enforcement people like us, minorities of one sort or another, tend to die.

A gay atheist in redneck-land, yep, you'd last a real long time around here without the rule of law around to protect you, wouldn't you?
 
Cynic
One of the freedoms the military provides us is the ability to question it.
 
Hypatia
RayvenAlandria wrote:
My complaint is not that Tim joined up and then betrayed his country by breaking his oath. Perhaps he really did have some kind of profound personality shift while in bootcamp. For argument's sake, let's say that scenario is true. I would not resent someone for changing and turning into a pacifist. It can happen.

What I don't like is someone who then starts insulting others and calls military members "murderers", makes youtube videos about it, and treats people like crap when they try to defend themselves against those insults. That is not a pacifist, that is an abusive asshole. ( a real pacifist is not that hostile or hateful...hint hint)

It's okay that Tim wiggled his way out of duty, it's even okay if he hates the military, it's NOT okay if he spouts hateful shit at military people and behaves abusively. Regardless of what he claims, I know for a fact he did/does so, because he did it to me.

Readers, put your philosophical viewpoints about the war aside, that is not what this is about. This is about Tim's personal abuse of others who do not share his anti-war sentiments. This is about the personal abuse of those who choose to join the military and do their duty. (or their families) Stop focusing on the smokescreen and notice the real issue.


g0at wrote:
Well well well.. Let me post the beginning of an email I received after trying to engage in a discussion with Alandria

"WOOOOO hold up your a firefighter right.... and training to be a EMS tell me how can you do the job you do everyday and believe you are saving lives? NEWSFLASH buddy you don't know shit about Iraq or the war or the troops. You are probably one of these guys who sits on his couch watching the news or believing everything you read. You are not there."

First of all, I told her in the previous email that me being a fire fighter has NOTHING to do with my opinion. I never used it as an arguement and I never did against her.

FYI Alandria you made a bunch of personal attacks towards me. If you had done your research you would have known many things about me that aren't hidden. I have 2 videos in my YT channel with a friend that is currently in Iraq for the second time. His name is travis, you should go look that up. As for me not being in Iraq, neither are you, and you haven't been there either.

I never treat anyone in the military with disrespect, and I never got rejected at meps.

I left the RRS years ago and haven't been associated with organized atheism.

I get a lot of emails on youtube and when people start personally attacking me, I usually discontinue the conversation. Stop being a hateful ugly person.

-g0at


This is understandable, and fair enough.

The only thing I've seen from g0at addressing Rayven's anger and issues with him about the things she says he's said (I have to say it that way at this point, Rayven, until and unless he attempts real and honest discussion about it) about those in the military and their families and friends is highlighted in one of his posts above. He may have addressed the subject in other posts and I may have missed or overlooked those. If so, then someone can point those out to me if they so choose (these fucking disclaimers!).

Saying those kinds of things, especially when it's regarding something like our own citizens - people's husbands, wives, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters - being in our militaries, away from home, fighting our fights for whatever reason those fights have transpired - is one of the meanest of means, cold hearted and is UNACCEPTABLE NO MATTER WHAT. PERIOD.

If someone is so devoid of feeling for others and the most basic common sense that they have to be told this, then they are WEAK and SAD and COLD and have so much to learn about morals and values, and they'd better start NOW. Right now.

There are places people may go in their own selfish, deranged brains, but there are places you just DO NOT go to - for ANY REASON - with other people, and that is just the way. it. is.

g0at: If you are still reading this thread, please, address this subject with RayvenAlandria.

Did you, or did you not, say the things she claims you said regarding people in the military and their dependents? DON'T be defensive - just answer the question and have a discussion.

If you did, why? DON'T defend yourself. Take responsibility for your actions.

If you did not, please discuss it.

You may discuss this situation with Rayven either privately, or in this thread. Anything you choose to discuss in this thread is open for discussion/comment by other members.
 
IGExpandingPanda
g0at wrote:

Did you mean Former?

We all know that Formal would not be the correct word to use. Just couldn't help but notice that you messed up your writing in the first sentence of a critique you wrote for me. Nice job!


AFAIK you were formal RRS member, as in the sort of person who frequented their forum, their chat room, harassed a theist for capital Atheism, likely would have bought a t-shirt. There is no such thing as an ex-RRS member at least according to the RRS. If you were not a formal member, do let me know. There is some confusion on this issue as they claim well over 10,000 formal members.

This also a sign of the RRS mentality. Whether or not I made a mistake does not negate the fact that you made one. You clearly made one out of ignorance. I'm not overly pedantic when it comes to forum postings, but someone who tries to use a Latin phrase to appear smart but employs it incorrectly, well that grates my nerves.

I'm sorry you ego was bruised dude, and you feel the need to vindicate your self. Yes, I too can fuck up grammar. But as a good rule of thumb, don't use esoteric phrases unless you understand their meaning. Consult a dictionary and style guide on this issue.

And by the way, this is an example of a augmentium ad hominem. I correct your use of ad hominem, and your counter arugment can be summed up as "well, your grammar sucks dude." My knowledge grammar has no bearing on the proper syntax in this case, it's childish to try to deflect your ignorance, and it's hypocritical to ask others not to "ad hom. you"(sic) when it's one of your tools.
 
Hypatia
RayvenAlandria wrote:
Hypatia, his comprehension skills are lacking. He accused me of writing emails I didn't write, now he seems to think you and I are the same person. He doesn't pay enough attention to notice that people in the same thread have different user names and are different people.


I thought that was probably the case, but I haven't had enough coffee yet to want to think about it all that much.

Oh wait. There isn't that much coffee on the planet.

Oh well.
 
RayvenAlandria
Hypatia, he can't admit or deny he had the conversation with me because he can't even remember who I am. There's no way he can remember the conversation we had in the stickam room. We were both on cams, so it was verbal. If there is a way to get those logs from stickam, the evidence would be there for all to see. I think it would entail asking the RRS to give stickam permission to post their private stickam room logs and I don't see that happening.

If I could toss a recording of the conversation up here, believe me, I would do so. I wish like hell I could do so. I would so love to throw that conversation in his face.

You can go watch his anti-military video and then read all the comments and make your own determination about his attitude towards military members based on the way he responded to the people he upset with the video. You can also note the over-use of the word "murderer" in this thread and get a pretty good inkling that my accusations of him treating military people and their families badly is most likely true.
 
IGExpandingPanda
Cynic wrote:
Language evolves -- get the fuck over it.


It's funny to say language "evolves" when we are discussing a Latin phrase.

I'm not an English major. I don't make claims to be an expert in formal logic. My grammar and spelling are not the best in the world. But one thing that bugs me are those who perpetuate ignorance, and that's what I saw here. RRS members tend to say things like "don't try to ad hoc me", which looks fucking stupid. I'm not anal retentive by nature, but if one is going to use an esoteric phrase, one should take the time to understand its meaning and how to use it in a damn sentance.
 
Cynic
Sometimes language evolves by absorbing words from other languages and making them its own, which is what you're seeing here.
 
IGExpandingPanda
Cynic wrote:
Sometimes language evolves by absorbing words from other languages and making them its own, which is what you're seeing here.


Popular use trumps dictionary definitions. That is true. However, it's use, as with other Latin phrases dealing with logical fallacies, has not evolved. That's the funny thing about an esoteric area of academia.

What I'm seeing here is a lack of understanding of this phrase, which is mainly due to people who are trying to argue with others outside of their proverbial weight class. They saw a phrase that looked cool and used it without understanding it's meaning.
 
Hypatia
RayvenAlandria wrote:
Hypatia, he can't admit or deny he had the conversation with me because he can't even remember who I am. There's no way he can remember the conversation we had in the stickam room. We were both on cams, so it was verbal. If there is a way to get those logs from stickam, the evidence would be there for all to see. I think it would entail asking the RRS to give stickam permission to post their private stickam room logs and I don't see that happening.

If I could toss a recording of the conversation up here, believe me, I would do so. I wish like hell I could do so. I would so love to throw that conversation in his face.

You can go watch his anti-military video and then read all the comments and make your own determination about his attitude towards military members based on the way he responded to the people he upset with the video. You can also note the over-use of the word "murderer" in this thread and get a pretty good inkling that my accusations of him treating military people and their families badly is most likely true.


Confusing people one has spoken with in chat rooms in the past is one thing. But being confused about emails is quite another. If one is going to talk about them so specifically in a public forum and make certain kinds of claims, one should still have them on hand to not only refer to but to use as proof. That would also help in clarifying before, and certainly after, making claims and posts about emails, who the identity of the sender was. I know people don't keep all their email, but come on - if you're going to use the contents of one as supposed ammunition against someone, at least be certain the sender and the accused are the same person before you write posts in public forums.

Also Rayven, in the long run, I don't think it should matter that g0at has confused you with who he has spoken to in Stickam. He shouldn't be the least bit confused about what he himself has talked about. So then it all boils down to him a) having an honest discussion about what he has or has not said, and Cool taking responsibility for what he has said - regardless of who he said it to.

Seems simple to me.

But then, if he is honest with himself about having said anything offensive and disrespectful to you, he should, in my opinion, be big enough to apologize* to you.

If g0at would like to have discussions about personal honesty and integrity, then we can do that, too, without flaming (hopefully) and nastiness (hopefully).

* I'm just saying I think he would owe you one. I'm not saying it would, or should, make everything hunky-dory. That would be for you to decide.

Apologies, for some, are like handing out chocolates. They're either completely stingy, or they give them away like their just candy.
Edited by Hypatia on 12/01/2008 15:55
 
Cynic
That's the thing though, IGEP, they didn't seem to understand it because they weren't speaking Latin, but English. I myself have never used it that way, but I knew immediately what was meant by it, didn't even glance back. The conversion of a concept to a verb is one of the most, if not the most, common changes you'll see happen, and this is a textbook example. The phase "ad homenim", when translated to English, isn't a discrete set of words anymore -- it's a single, discrete concept, and so can be used as such.

Sure it's jarring, but it's impossible to stop these things from happening. You just hope the worst of them don't catch on.
 
RayvenAlandria
Hypatia, I agree. When he told people to PM him and he'd provide screen shots of *my* hateful emails and quoted what I supposedly said to him, you'd think he'd take five seconds to notice the names and that I was not the one who sent them. To be honest, my opinion is that he didn't expect me to ask him to post proof that I wrote them. When I did so he back-peddled so fast he fell over.

I know what he said to me in the stickam room, and quite frankly, I feel that he does too and is just pretending he doesn't. I believe he has said the exact same things to other people, so he knows he said it even IF he doesn't remember me by my name. If I posted a picture or told him a bit more about me, he would remember me, but I'm having fun watching him flounder so I won't.

He was a jerk and he and I both know it. He just doesn't want to admit it. I really liked him before that day and what he said hurt my feelings quite a bit. I made an excuse and logged out of the stickam room because I didn't want anyone to see me cry. I wasn't bawling or anything, but I felt really hurt and shed a few tears. I went back into the room about twenty minutes later and he was gone. People in the room welcomed me back and apologized for the way he acted and said he was an ass. The other woman he insulted never came back, at least not during the time I frequented the room. I can't remember her name, she was new and had only been in the room a few times before that day. I wish I could remember who she was so she could verify my story.

What I say happened is my statement and since I didn't record the conversation, I cannot offer any proof of what I claim. I will not be offended if anyone chooses to not believe me. I offer no evidence, so what can I expect? Tim and I know what happened though, that's what matters. He can claim he's never insulted a military family member all he wants and I'll keep calling him a liar. Everyone else can watch in amusement or ignore us.
 
Hypatia
Something I want to offer to g0at to think about - you said you changed your mind about being in the military because you didn't want to murder people. Well, on the other hand, when you made that decision, you also made the decision to not risk having your own ass blown off or to risk losing your own life.

So the military life isn't for you. But the fact remains that there are those who have made the decision to be in our militaries and are indeed risking their asses and losing their lives, every second of every day.

For you, or anyone else to call them murderers - and most especially publicly, to them, and to their loved ones, is truly a selfish, thoughtless and sick thing to do.

You, and anyone who behaves that way, needs to do some serious, serious searching of themselves. But most of all - stop doing it. You may or may not change the way you believe about anyone else who is in the military, but STOP 'dissing anyone who is, and don't do it anymore.

You say you were a christian and recently became atheist. Good for you. You're moving in the right direction, IMO. But just because someone no longer adheres to the adult fairy tales doesn't mean they (all the way around, at least) have moral decency and/or basic common sense.

If you were raised in religion, then part of the probelm is not all your own. Most people brought up in religion depend on their holy books and religious 'leaders' for guidance and education in the areas of morals and values. But that only accounts for a part of the problem, and you are, after all, an adult, and you are ultimately responsible for your own thoughts and actions.

If you have not been taught what you really need to know, learn it - teach it to yourself. If you want and need the help and input of others, that's fine - ask, seek. But you are still responsible for discerning and choosing and for what comes out as the person you ultimately are.

Learn humility, learn about being humble, learn about being decent to others - even when they don't do as you choose to do. We aren't only about being 'right', being number 1, saving face, asserting ourselves, being on top, and on and on. Certainly you can 'get' the ends of the spectrum thing.

It's very simple (IMO most 'necessary rules' are) - don't say those incredibly nasty things to and about people in the military anymore, and then apply the same 'rule' to any other truly nasty thing you say or do.

Learn what the word 'empathy' means, and then try to understand it and feel it and then put that feeling into your life.

If you aren't honest with anyone else, at least be honest with yourself.



 
Sugarfree
Cynic: If that were what g0at was saying then surely he would have said he didnt want to be the instrument of murder rather than a murderer. Though i understand the difference you note i dont think it applies here. I may be wrong of course (i often am lol).
Respect,


*edited due to technical problems
Edited by Sugarfree on 12/01/2008 17:30
 
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