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Amish Suspected of Massacre?
derF
Max wrote:Oh for god's sake. What was the age limit on this site again? Four?


Why? Don't you qualify?

Max wrote: I am so tired of people with an ego big enough to declare their leaving this site in such an over the top, ridiculous, dramatic way. Considering I used to be the same way, I know. Now I know there truly are no adults, just large children.


Luckily we have you around who can accurately judge character as your last post comfirms. How long have you been on this site? Neil was with us from the very first incarnation. It's people like you who are quick to judge (and usually misjudge) and belittle others that make valuable members like Neil feel more comfortable just moving on.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
RayvenAlandria
Okay, now I see what it is I missed and what the hell Skeeve was referring to in the other thread.

Non admin me says;

I feel that Islam is a truly evil religion and anyone who chooses to be part of it is responsible for the evil it teaches. I feel the same way about Judaism and Christianity as well.

Willie stfu and leave neil alone.

Admin me says;

We will have to agree to disagree and move on. It is a controversial subject and the least we can do is try to respect each other's right to feel the way we do about it. Take a time out and go chill. Let's talk about something else if this subject gets us so upset we start calling each other names.

 
RayvenAlandria
and derf, leave Max alone. He's been around since the old Atheist.com days, he's just using a new name, and even if he was brand new, he has the right to voice any opinion he wants to.

Stop it or I'm gonna throw the whole lot of you into the cage.


...but only after I fill it with jello and make you wear old fashioned funny-looking bathing suits.
 
JDHURF
seeker wrote:
Sadly willie it is easier to hate a group of people than to deal with social problems. Sorry to see you go but I do understand why.


I hope willie doesn't leave. His counter-balance to the fanaticism here is a nice one.
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
Cynic
No reason to moderate, IMO.
 
RayvenAlandria
It was a joke Cynic. I was trying to add some humor to a bad situation.

My kids always tell me my jokes suck.

Sorry.
 
Sinny
RayvenAlandria wrote:

Stop it or I'm gonna throw the whole lot of you into the cage.


...but only after I fill it with jello and make you wear old fashioned funny-looking bathing suits.


Ha ha ha that's funny.


RayvenAlandria wrote:
It was a joke Cynic. I was trying to add some humor to a bad situation.

My kids always tell me my jokes suck.

Sorry.


Now it's even funnier. Sometimes it funny to imagine someone you disagree with wearing something funny looking.
 
Sinny
I don't think either one of you should leave [Neil and Willie].

You both are only discussing your point of views and opinions. There's no reason to get upset. Neil maybe Willie was trying to point out he thinks you might become like one of those people he talked about and didn't mean it [an insult] directly to you. I'm not saying that's what Willie was trying to point out just giving the benefit of maybe that's why he said it or rather added it in his post.

As far as peaceful muslims not speaking up they may be too afraid to speak up for fear of being killed. They have it much harder than christians here do when they disagree with each other. Christians here don't try to kill one another for disagreeing but it's different with radical muslim Islamists. The radicals don't live the same way peaceful Islamic muslims do. Also they may be busy raising their families like many of us are, they may be busy doing what they think is right as to how they should live and just can't spend all their time fighting against what they think is wrong with others in their religion. I noticed muslims that are in America are more peaceful than radical muslims. I have met muslims who stay with their faith, stupid as it is to me, they keep to it faithfully and disagree with threatening others and/or bombing people. They are all called, so to speak, to kill all who oppose their allah but not all do it. I'm sure you know this Neil. Maybe if the media showed the other side of muslims and how many others do live without being radical it would to get the point across that they are not all the same except with the idiot religion part and believing in fairytales.

You both have a right to your opinions and both opinions are valid. I see no reason for either one to leave this site. If one doesn't want to debate and only post their opinion then it shouldn't be a problem to do that. The other can choose to not reply to the post, period.
 
Max
derF wrote:
Max wrote:Oh for god's sake. What was the age limit on this site again? Four?


Why? Don't you qualify?


Max wrote: I am so tired of people with an ego big enough to declare their leaving this site in such an over the top, ridiculous, dramatic way. Considering I used to be the same way, I know. Now I know there truly are no adults, just large children.


Luckily we have you around who can accurately judge character as your last post comfirms. How long have you been on this site? Neil was with us from the very first incarnation. It's people like you who are quick to judge (and usually misjudge) and belittle others that make valuable members like Neil feel more comfortable just moving on.


Considering I've been on this site about three more years than you or Neil, Derf, that's pretty comical. I used to go by Gilhaney. Get the stick/soap box out of your ass first before you start playing hero and defender of the weak and down trodden. I've seen it before on this site, and it's a little old now. Or at least learn to take a joke. I was not belittling anyone's character, rather the childish manner in which you all are acting. Did people get their precious feelings hurt? Did we not agree with all your opinions? Well sorry, but at the big kid table, sometimes we disagree. Those immature enough to feel that their character has been attacked can leave, and than come back in three months like nothing happened like every other time this has gone down.

I have no problem with you or Neil, I like you both in fact and have always gotten on well with you, so please don't conflate this as some sort of attack on you personally. God forbid we have any more people leave and than come back in two weeks once the hissy fit has worn off.
Edited by Max on 11/28/2008 20:26
 
Max
JDHURF wrote:
seeker wrote:
Sadly willie it is easier to hate a group of people than to deal with social problems. Sorry to see you go but I do understand why.


I hope willie doesn't leave. His counter-balance to the fanaticism here is a nice one.


I hope the same thing. Uh oh, maybe I will will be accused of defending Islam now! I better go hide my copy of the Quran!
 
Max
And I'd like to add I wish Neil wasn't going either, as I have had several very nice discussions with him. Maybe when both of them grow up we'll see a return.
Edited by Max on 11/28/2008 20:34
 
JohnH
OK, as an unrepentant compromiser I will jump in.

I think the major problem is attributing violence entirely to a religion.

Christianity was used to justify the slaughter of native americans and the enslavement of africans. It was not the only reason these things occurred.

Israelis have killed significant numbers of Palestinians since 1948. This certainly has a significant factor of religious difference. That is not the only reason.

The outside world has generally vilified the Serbs in Yugoslavia. Is the fact of their religion significant, yes. Is it the only reason, no.

Were the US's wars on Afghanistan and Iraq enabled by the religious differences, yes. Was it the only reason, no.

I could go on but I think I have made my point.

To see the attacks in Mumbai as strictly related to religion is not correct. I would in fact argue that doing so buys into the rulers propaganda as brought to you by the captive press. There is a reason to see the Muslim world in a negative way. There is a reason to make the Muslim world violent and the other. There are reasons that are associated with maintenance of the Imperial US. Muslims should be understood to have no legitimate grievances that would cause these sort of attacks.

Those of you who are old enough to remember the rhetoric of the black liberation movement of the mid to late 60's should understand that at times people are driven to violence. Without necessarily agreeing with either the words or the potential acts one should understand that the reasons can be complex.
 
Cynic
I think that it's being argued that religion is the primary reason, not the only reason.
 
derF
GILHANEY/MAX wrote: Considering I've been on this site about three more years than you or Neil, Derf, that's pretty comical. I used to go by Gilhaney. Get the stick/soap box out of your ass first before you start playing hero and defender of the weak and down trodden. I've seen it before on this site, and it's a little old now. Or at least learn to take a joke. I was not belittling anyone's character, rather the childish manner in which you all are acting. Did people get their precious feelings hurt? Did we not agree with all your opinions? Well sorry, but at the big kid table, sometimes we disagree. Those immature enough to feel that their character has been attacked can leave, and than come back in three months like nothing happened like every other time this has gone down.


Of course you are absolutely correct I am way to immature to share this board with the like of the ever correct members here. And too thin skinned. And unintelligent and all of the other insults I have received here. Sigh.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
catman
I think it would be a great idea for everyone whose hackles are up to take a step back and chill. derF, please, no pity parties allowed....you blew it because you didn't recognize Max by his new moniker. I'm not speaking as an 'Administrator', I'd simply like to see an armistice between all concerned.

(Now everyone can tell me to go to that imaginary hot place.) Wink
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
JohnH
Cynic, I speak to you directly only because you brought up the point and it allows me to explain better what I wanted to say.

I used the word only and as you point out correctly that was probably a bit extreme (? I am not certain what word to use, extreme being more than I mean).

I would not argue with you that religion was used in the attacks in Mumbai as the primary motivator. I would argue that religion was not necessairly the primary cause and that is the point I was trying to make. We allow the people in control to convince us that motivator and cause are synonymous at our peril.

If a member of Sinn Fein left a bomb on a subway car in London was it described as an attack on Protestants, no. Was religion involved, yes. Were there significant non religious circumstances, yes.
 
seeker
Hey, if I get a note from my mom do I have to go on the jihad?
 
Max
derF wrote:
GILHANEY/MAX wrote: Considering I've been on this site about three more years than you or Neil, Derf, that's pretty comical. I used to go by Gilhaney. Get the stick/soap box out of your ass first before you start playing hero and defender of the weak and down trodden. I've seen it before on this site, and it's a little old now. Or at least learn to take a joke. I was not belittling anyone's character, rather the childish manner in which you all are acting. Did people get their precious feelings hurt? Did we not agree with all your opinions? Well sorry, but at the big kid table, sometimes we disagree. Those immature enough to feel that their character has been attacked can leave, and than come back in three months like nothing happened like every other time this has gone down.


Of course you are absolutely correct I am way to immature to share this board with the like of the ever correct members here. And too thin skinned. And unintelligent and all of the other insults I have received here. Sigh.


Oh come ON man! Point out in my post, or any I've ever made where I implied that. I never called you unintelligent, in fact I think you are intelligent, which is why I think it's a pity that you're all acting like this. You took my post as an attack on you, it wasn't, it was an attack on the way you were ACTING. I might have called you thin skinned, but really, many people are. I said many times before that I liked you, I don't know why you insist on thinking that when ever someone disagrees with you they despise you or something. And while I appreciate the "ever correct" label, I can't say I can claim that, being someone who's been wrong in the past. Please, just stop the drama.
 
Cynic
JohnH wrote:If a member of Sinn Fein left a bomb on a subway car in London was it described as an attack on Protestants, no. Was religion involved, yes. Were there significant non religious circumstances, yes.


Regardless of how appropriate (or not) that situation might be analogous to this Mumbai "situation", or the regional violence in Iraq, or the actions of Al Qeada, or Nazis, or whatever -- situations where religion is involved... Even if we can only point to religion as the glue that holds these groups together and operating, isn't the fact that it enables and allows these things to happen reason enough to condemn it as part of the problem?
 
seeker
Whew, what a tangled up mess. How many years has this stupid discussion tied up between atheists.com and now? 4? 5?

This discussion isn't about whether religion gets good people to go along with bad acts, we already know it does that. The argument has always really been about the focus on demonization of the Muslim religion. No one is defending Islam per se, the point is that that you can't treat people like sub-humans and not expect them to react. That they justify their reaction by their religion is no surprise, they don't have anything else.

Some of you act like you think that if we could just get their priest to stop preaching all of the problems with extremists would go away. Are you for real? Do you really think that the guy in Jordan whose perception of the world is that the US runs everything and condones the injustice in the Middle East is going to drop that just because no one is pointing out to him? Just how dumb do you really think these people are?

These are people who have been exploited all their lives. Their own leaders live off of huge oil profits, none of which the common person there ever sees, petty dictators that the US keeps in place purely because they keep the oil coming. Do you think they are backwards because they want to be?

But wait, this doesn't even describe the horror yet. These ignorant, uneducated people, kept that way by the people we put in charge aren't even close to being left alone by us. In the late seventies we take a bunch of their fanatics and prop them up against the USSR. Then we stand innocently back and cry when those same fanatics begin doing what we trained them to do, wage guerrilla warfare against a large exploitative superpower.

Even that's not bad enough though. As it turns out, for those of you who really hate these religious fanatics, there is no serious effort to wipe them out. The fact is that a lot of very powerful interests really like the terrorists. You can't justify really big defense contracts in a peaceful world. Fear is a lot harder to generate if you don't have an enemy.

Terrorism is the new abortion, an issue people react to without thinking. Its too useful for getting politicians elected for them to ever get rid of. Vote for me or the bogeyman will blow up your children.

Buy into it if you like. Fear mongering has always relied on people not being able to see past their immediate emotion. When I was a kid everyone was afraid of communists, now is muslim extremists. Personally I'm tired of the whole us versus them mentality. Its just as irrational as any other belief.
 
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