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Barbaric
Skeeve
It seems that somehow it's become impolite to criticize religion on an atheist forum.

Somehow that sounds wrong.

Islam is not a peaceful religion, it's not a few militant bad apples. The entire religion is based on a barbaric book, that even surpasses the jewish torah is it's depravity on fellow humans. (Maybe not numbers wise, but in actual reasons for killing humans not following the pedophile prophet)

Anyone that is aware of the actual tenets of Islam and continues to keep faith is as guilty as those fundy muslims that require anyone be killed for disrespecting their base and inhuman religion.

I find it hard to believe there are atheists defending this piece of shit made up myth.

WTF is wrong with this? To lose a very dear member of this site because he was "required" to defend his opinion of a religion...pitiful.

I don't care if some news articles are biased against Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any other made up bullshit. We know what they do is a lie, whether their lies get reported fairly or not means nothing.
Fuck them and all their piece of shit adherents.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
Cynic
Silly Skeeve -- don't you know that they recent events in Mumbai were caused by a cultural need to preserve family honor and has nothing at all to do with religions, which are only to be respected and never singled out as a promoter of violence?

BTW, who'd we lose?
 
Max
I'm still waiting for "You guys are poopy heads." C'mon people, you want to act like monkeys, I want to see some ACTUAL shit flying.
 
RayvenAlandria
Whut?

Did I miss something?

I agree Islam is an evil and violent religion. I was once engaged to a Muslim. He gave me a Koran. I was so appalled I could not read it all. It's even worse than then the Christian bible.
 
JDHURF
Skeeve wrote: It seems that somehow it's become impolite to criticize religion on an atheist forum. Somehow that sounds wrong.


I think you’re conflating the criticism of religion with the bigoted generalization and condemnation of an entire segment of human civilization.

Skeeve wrote: Islam is not a peaceful religion, it's not a few militant bad apples. The entire religion is based on a barbaric book, that even surpasses the jewish torah is it's depravity on fellow humans. (Maybe not numbers wise, but in actual reasons for killing humans not following the pedophile prophet)


It’s simply false, and in my view extremely bigoted and racist, to argue that the entire world’s population of Muslims are barbaric and violent:

http://www.youtub...re=channel

http://www.youtub...re=channel


Skeeve wrote: I find it hard to believe there are atheists defending this piece of shit made up myth.


More confusion. No atheists that I know are defending the myth, they are defending peaceful people who believe stupid things from bigoted generalizations, caricatures and condemnations of the sort that led to the Holocaust.

Skeeve wrote: WTF is wrong with this? To lose a very dear member of this site because he was "required" to defend his opinion of a religion...pitiful.


More confusion. If you’re referring to derF’s thread, it is beyond clear that no one required him to defend his “opinion of a religion,” – although surely positions should be supported, I would find it hard to believe an atheist concerned with rationalism and logic would really argue that supportive evidence isn’t required for the expressing of subjective opinions, especially if and when they are profane – he was being asked to defend his argument that Muslims were seeking world domination (it’s not a new argument, it has existed even well before the Nazis in various forms).

Skeeve wrote: Fuck them and all their piece of shit adherents.


Anger isn’t the solution, that much is for damn sure.

Cynic wrote: Silly Skeeve -- don't you know that they recent events in Mumbai were caused by a cultural need to preserve family honor and has nothing at all to do with religions, which are only to be respected and never singled out as a promoter of violence?


Right and obviously the terrorist’s connections to Pakistan militants are irrelevant, as are the political realities of the India-Pakistan conflict. Clearly everything happens in a sociopolitical vacuum and only religious ideology has any impact upon behavior. /sarcasm
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Cynic
Apparently we both missed this:

http://atheiststo...#post_8492

This is terrible -- Neil and Willie are both very valuable members, and I don't want to see either go. Barring thick skin, I wish everyone could at least learn to ignore that which bothers them -- and to leave alone those who do not wish to be challenged each and every time they want to express an opinion.

When will this Brit on Brit crime end? Angry
Edited by Cynic on 11/28/2008 19:09
 
JDHURF
Yeah, I saw that thread right after posting here. I hope willie decides to go ahead and stay. I understand his frustration for sure.
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
Skeeve
JDHURF wrote:
It seems that somehow it's become
It’s simply false, and in my view extremely bigoted and racist, to argue that the entire world’s population of Muslims are barbaric and violent:


I'll cop to being bigoted, but where is race involved?

If the "peaceful" islamic idiots won't stand up and make a very strong statement against the more barbaric of their brethren, they are complicit in their actions, period. I'm a bigot for saying this. So be it.

I call bullshit on the lot of them, True Christians®, True Muslims® and the Real Jews®. It shouldn't be the USA, the UN or anyone elses responsibility to rein in the pieces of shit, it should be THEIR religious leaders. They are the ones that should be trying to put a stop to this bullshit. And until that happens, I'll be the angry bigoted atheist calling all of them barbaric.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
JDHURF
Skeeve wrote: I'll cop to being bigoted, but where is race involved?


Most people conflate all Arabs as Muslim and vice versa, or, really, anyone who is both foreign and brown.

Skeeve wrote: If the "peaceful" islamic idiots won't stand up and make a very strong statement against the more barbaric of their brethren, they are complicit in their actions, period. I'm a bigot for saying this. So be it.


You’re ignorant for saying it (in the literal not pejorative sense):

http://www.muhaja...ondemn.php
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
Cynic
After the fallout from the publishing of one cartoon of Muhammad (to name but one example), can anyone seriously doubt that the derth of serious books and articles that might legitimately lay some of the blame on the religion of Islam itself is caused by fear of retribution and political correctness, and not necessarily a reflection of genuine journalistic and editorial integrity?

For those whose personal opinions rely on the published reports of others, they should consider this source of reporting bias into account.
 
JDHURF
Cynic, no one is arguing that Islam isn't the cause of any social conflict whatever, that's clearly not true, the argument is that the position that Islam is "the root of all Evil," that all Muslims condone, are accomplices with and the conspicuous motivating factors of terrorism is outrageous in its falsity.
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
Cynic
Suggesting that anyone is suggesting that is outrageous in its falsity.
 
Bob of QF
Skeeve wrote:
I call bullshit on the lot of them, True Christians®, True Muslims® and the Real Jews®. It shouldn't be the USA, the UN or anyone elses responsibility to rein in the pieces of shit, it should be THEIR religious leaders. They are the ones that should be trying to put a stop to this bullshit. And until that happens, I'll be the angry bigoted atheist calling all of them barbaric.


HEAR! HEAR!

JDHURF wrote:
You’re ignorant for saying it (in the literal not pejorative sense):

http://www.muhaja...ondemn.php


Buncha words. Let's see some ACTUAL BEHAVIOR besides mamby-pamby "criticism" and "denouncement" of these acts of violence.

How about some cutting off of the funds to the extreme groups? Do we see that suggestion? I think not.

It's the exact same thing when extreme Christians fire-bombed women's clinics and all we heard from the "moderates" was "That was not very nice. We are not responsible. They shouldn't have done that." Words.

And the bombings continued. And the suicide bombings continue.

I'm with Skeeve and Neil, on this one.

Excusing the "moderate" sub-groups is just that: letting them off with a "by".

They need to be held responsible for the actions their books engender in others.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
JDHURF
Cynic wrote:
Suggesting that anyone is suggesting that is outrageous in its falsity.


You're either willfully lying or you haven't spent enough time reading through these threads.
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Skeeve
JDHURF wrote:
Skeeve wrote: I'll cop to being bigoted, but where is race involved?


Most people conflate all Arabs as Muslim and vice versa, or, really, anyone who is both foreign and brown.


So why call me racist? How did "Skeeve" become "most people"? Please quote anything I've said that would lead you to believe this.

JDHURF wrote:
Skeeve wrote: If the "peaceful" islamic idiots won't stand up and make a very strong statement against the more barbaric of their brethren, they are complicit in their actions, period. I'm a bigot for saying this. So be it.


You’re ignorant for saying it (in the literal not pejorative sense)


I'd prefer the pejorative, since it's my opinion, based on how I see the world around me. I'm far from ignorant of what is happening in the real world. I'm not going to coddle the watered down versions of islam because their hardcore members can't be kept in check. Islam is a violent and extreme religion at its core, those that don't choose to follow it as it's written need to stop calling themselves muslim and pick something else if they don't want to be identified as such.

*edited for grammar
Edited by Skeeve on 11/28/2008 19:53
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
Cynic
A third theory you might consider is that I'm able to read the intent of someone's words, rather than merely the letter of them.
 
JDHURF
Bob of QF wrote: Buncha words. Let's see some ACTUAL BEHAVIOR besides mamby-pamby "criticism" and "denouncement" of these acts of violence.


First it’s shrieked that Muslims don’t criticize terrorism, now they’re being demanded to leave their homes and lives and go fight terrorism themselves? That’s preposterous. Just because I’m a socialist doesn’t mean that I have to go fight off the FARC in Colombia.

Bob of QF wrote: It's the exact same thing when extreme Christians fire-bombed women's clinics and all we heard from the "moderates" was "That was not very nice. We are not responsible. They shouldn't have done that." Words.


Tired propaganda. The response of the religious moderates is not simply to say, “we are not responsible” (although that is by definition true, if they did not participate or condone the actions, they are not responsible, unless you would like to defend some form of voodoo or telepathy).
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
Bob of QF
JDHURF wrote:
Cynic, no one is arguing that Islam isn't the cause of any social conflict whatever, that's clearly not true, the argument is that the position that Islam is "the root of all Evil," that all Muslims condone, are accomplices with and the conspicuous motivating factors of terrorism is outrageous in its falsity.


I disagree that this is false.

By utilizing the same book as the extremists, and by sitting by and doing nothing to stop those same extremists, they are enabling those extreme behaviors by default.

Do their clerics go out and declare the extremists are "not really muslim any more, but evil"? No. A verbal slap on the wrist, at the most.

I've heard the speeches by the "moderates." It always consists of face-saving, and words to distance them from the violence of their brothers-in-belief.

If a "war against the violent muslims" were started by the moderates, then I might buy that they are not indirectly culpable.

But, by standing by, by just spouting words, by doing nothing that is effective in stopping the violence?

They become accomplices, for they use the exact same book to justify the behavior of each.

The exact same reasoning can be applied to moderate Christians, too, with respect to their zealots over here, such as the anti-gay bashing, the women's clinic bombings, etc. They each use the exact same book.

....

What is the answer? Well, obviously, denounce the book(s).

That's not gonna happen, so long as the moderates refuse to own up to the responsibility that pushing their book forward directly causes violence among some aspects of humanity.

Perhaps both books need some rewriting....
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
JDHURF
Skeeve wrote: I'd prefer the pejorative, since it's my opinion, based on how I see the world around me.


It’s the literal definition which is here applicable. You were ignorant, i.e. unaware, of the verbose index of Islamic organizations and Muslim intellectuals and so on who have very strongly criticized terrorism conducted in the name of Islam.

Skeeve wrote: I'm far from ignorant of what is happening in the real world. I'm not going to coddle the watered down versions of islam because their hardcore members can't be kept in check. Islam is a violent and extreme religion at its core, those that don't choose to follow it as it's written need to stop calling themselves muslim and pick something else if they don't want to be identified as such.


You are very “ignorant of what is happening in the real world,” as are by definition most atheists who delude themselves into excluding the global sociopolitical realities and pretending that only religious belief is operative. That’s ignorance on a stunning level. It requires almost complete ignorance of global socioeconomic and political realities.
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
JDHURF
Bob of QF:

Your latest post outright ignores the evidence that I have posted that clearly refutes your general theses. You are simply regurgitating Sam Harris.
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