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Barbaric
seeker
Even the group of 'humanity' Rayven?
 
JDHURF
RayvenAlandria wrote:
JDHURF wrote:
Bob of QF wrote:They are responsible. They all are.


Pure witchcraft. A person is responsible for his/her own actions, they are not and cannot be responsible for the actions of other people. The ideology you are now espousing is a supernatural one: voodoo.


You are so full of shit.

If you join a " I hate faggots" group, you support the ideology and ARE responsible for what that group does, especially with the funds you donate to it. Being in such a group makes a person a bigot.

You are responsible for any group you choose to be part of, whether it's religious, political or social in nature.


Wow, aren
Edited by JDHURF on 11/29/2008 19:55
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RayvenAlandria
There is a huge difference between ONE person in your group committing murder and a sector of your group committing murders.

As for you SDS example, if I were a member of that group and they did such a thing I would decide whether to remain in that group by watching the rest of the group to see what they did. If they turned a blind eye and id not kick out the criminal element I would leave the group. Precisely how I waited and watched and then decided to leave TAM.

Seeker, the *group* of humanity is not a belief system. Nice try but it doesn't relate.
 
seeker
Actually it does Rayven. Most people are born into religions, they make no choice about joining. They grow with their religious beliefs so integrated into their thought processes that they really often know no other way to think.
 
JDHURF
RayvenAlandria wrote:
There is a huge difference between ONE person in your group committing murder and a sector of your group committing murders.

As for you SDS example, if I were a member of that group and they did such a thing I would decide whether to remain in that group by watching the rest of the group to see what they did. If they turned a blind eye and id not kick out the criminal element I would leave the group. Precisely how I waited and watched and then decided to leave TAM.


Here again is the conflation of groups. Wahhabism and Salafi Islam are clearly as different from the Progressive Muslim Union as Gnostic Christianity is to Evangelicalism. Even further, no matter how many people of a group commit a certain action, only those who participated are responsible. A human being is not responsible for the actions and crimes of others, that
Edited by JDHURF on 11/29/2008 20:30
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RayvenAlandria
seeker wrote:
Actually it does Rayven. Most people are born into religions, they make no choice about joining. They grow with their religious beliefs so integrated into their thought processes that they really often know no other way to think.


Many of us grew up in very religious families and saw through the BS.

JD, I've stated my opinion and I could care less whether you agree with it. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me. You are free to think and feel any way you chose to. We are not going to agree so we might as well stop debating about this issue.

ETA; By the way, no one here stated that a person was legally responsible for the actions of another person. You're getting desperate and grasping at straws now. Might as well just give it up and accept the fact that people don't agree with you and are not going to. It's time to move on and talk about something else.
Edited by RayvenAlandria on 11/29/2008 22:36
 
seeker
RayvenAlandria wrote:
seeker wrote:
Actually it does Rayven. Most people are born into religions, they make no choice about joining. They grow with their religious beliefs so integrated into their thought processes that they really often know no other way to think.


Many of us grew up in very religious families and saw through the BS.



Rayven, folks like us are about 10% of the population. We are unique, the majority are what we have to deal with.
 
RayvenAlandria
seeker wrote:
RayvenAlandria wrote:
seeker wrote:
Actually it does Rayven. Most people are born into religions, they make no choice about joining. They grow with their religious beliefs so integrated into their thought processes that they really often know no other way to think.


Many of us grew up in very religious families and saw through the BS.



Rayven, folks like us are about 10% of the population. We are unique, the majority are what we have to deal with.


Yeah well, I can still resent them for not evolving. I may not treat them badly or with rudeness but deep down I think they are being irresponsible.
 
Sinny
Yeah but when they do speak up and decide it's all bullshit they have to leave their Country, learn a new language, learn how to survive all alone in a foreign Country and risk being killed before getting the chance to leave alive. I see how fearful I am and don't tell people I'm atheist because I don't want to lose my job. Imagine if I were threatened with my life or worse being beaten nearly to death or set on fire, etc. before being killed for not believing. Also brainwashing can last a life time when people have no where else to turn when they are scared, have problems, etc.

Other than Islam in say America they don't have their lives theratened but they do get constant reinforcement, friendships, social advantages when they stay in their religion. Example: My sister was sick and couldn't take care of our Mother, two disabled men and her husband had to work to help support them. It's not like he could call in sick at work since he runs his own business and has little help with meeting clients and so on. Anyway their church members brought them food, cooked enough meals for a week and made sure all were fed and well taken care of. Her husband made sure the men and our Mom got their meds. Without those church members they would have nearly starved and been left to fend for themselves when they were helpless to do that. This is one reason many people do join church and become religious....they make friends who help each other when they desperately need that help.. With church socialization there are more people to pitch in and help. They can't rsik evolving or thinking about what is true they think about who can and will help them and vice versa when they need it. They think about the rewards they are promised in another life and that is very tempting to people who live a shitty hard life. It takes days, weeks to get help from volunteers throught the State, Medicare. Not to mention all the bullshit red tape with guidelines for approval to get the help. But with what they call fellowship in a church they get help much faster and are willing to return the favor when they can, when needed. This is why I can't understand why they give the thanks to a god when it's the people who are helping each other not the god. They say to me they thank the god because if the god didn't exist they wouldn't have met each other in the church so it's the HS who gets the thanks while they do all the work because the HS is who/what got them (changed) them to do it. I can understand why/what makes them stay the way they are considering they aren't independent enough to survive on their own. Though no one can survive completely on their own and if more people were willing to help each other friends, family or not there would be less need for people to feel they need to turn to a god.

The brainwashing
The threats to their lives
The socializing
The help they get
The feeling of having a sense of belonging
All give them an excuse or reason to stay in it.
Edited by Sinny on 11/30/2008 13:31
 
seeker
RayvenAlandria wrote:
Yeah well, I can still resent them for not evolving. I may not treat them badly or with rudeness but deep down I think they are being irresponsible.


No argument from me on that. Sometimes, even though you are right, you lose more by proving the point than you gain.

I compare it to being at a dinner table with cannibals. Sure, you can proselytize against cannibalism but that may not be the best move for you at the time.
 
JDHURF
RayvenAlandria wrote: JD, I've stated my opinion and I could care less whether you agree with it. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me. You are free to think and feel any way you chose to. We are not going to agree so we might as well stop debating about this issue.


That
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Bob of QF
seeker wrote:
To an extent I'm with you on this one Bob but that only goes so far. The problem is that the focus on just the religious element obscures a lot of other factors that cause this underlying bad behavior. Face it, had we in the west not decided that we were entitled to the Middle East's resources we wouldn't have created a lot of the conditions that have caused the problems we are having these days. Our society's religious fanaticism is no different from theirs in any way except that we have a better military right now.

Have you ever read about 'manifest destiny'? The original colonists considereds themselves to be a 'New Israel' and justified the Genocide of native Americans because they viewed it as the same process as the bibles depictions of Isreal destroying the Caananites.

The same thinking went on in England when the Brits, with US help, plopped a bunch of Jews down in their holy land and then looked the other way while Jewish settlers committed a string of atrocities, as they continue to do. Its all irrational and the moderates keep backing the extremists on both sides.

What continues the conflict is not the extremists, its the people who keep looking at the extremists and blaming them while ignoring the causes. Wanna know the really fucked up part Bob? Oh come on, you know you want to.

The fucked up part is that the people who are continuing the conflict are the idiots who keep putting the same kinds of people into power over and over. Israel is run by hard liners who always consider force first. The Palestinians respond with the same kinds of leaders, who tacitly (on both sides) not only encourage extremists but use the fear those extremists generate to keep themselves in power. The thing that is fucked up Bob is that the people who keep those idiots in power are the uninformed, those people who see the articles in the papere and believe them, never once questioning why things never really seem to change.

That 'tacit acceptance of irrational behavior' is not just a theist thing, its a human thing


You have raised some very excellent points.

Especially with the ignorant fools putting hard-line leaders in power.

Here in the US, we see that time and time again: fundigelicals are typically among the poor or lower income classes. Yet, time and time again, they vote into power, those who's interests lie with the very, very rich, and continue to give more power and privilege to the very, very rich as result.

Yet these uninformed fundigelicals continue to vote against their own economic interests.

*sigh*

It boils down to education, again.

When does it not?
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Bob of QF
RayvenAlandria wrote:
JDHURF wrote:
Bob of QF wrote:They are responsible. They all are.


Pure witchcraft. A person is responsible for his/her own actions, they are not and cannot be responsible for the actions of other people. The ideology you are now espousing is a supernatural one: voodoo.


You are so full of shit.

If you join a " I hate faggots" group, you support the ideology and ARE responsible for what that group does, especially with the funds you donate to it. Being in such a group makes a person a bigot.

You are responsible for any group you choose to be part of, whether it's religious, political or social in nature.


I can only imagine what tiny nit-pick "point" he will raise for THIS post.



Nice analogy, Rayven!
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
JDHURF
Bob of QF wrote:
RayvenAlandria wrote:
JDHURF wrote:
Bob of QF wrote:They are responsible. They all are.


Pure witchcraft. A person is responsible for his/her own actions, they are not and cannot be responsible for the actions of other people. The ideology you are now espousing is a supernatural one: voodoo.


You are so full of shit.

If you join a " I hate faggots" group, you support the ideology and ARE responsible for what that group does, especially with the funds you donate to it. Being in such a group makes a person a bigot.

You are responsible for any group you choose to be part of, whether it's religious, political or social in nature.


I can only imagine what tiny nit-pick "point" he will raise for THIS post.



Nice analogy, Rayven!


Are you serious? I responded to that several posts ago. It was a fallacious analogy, as I demonstrated. Your eyerolling notwithstanding.
Edited by JDHURF on 11/30/2008 18:00
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Bob of QF
JDHURF wrote:
[quote]RayvenAlandria wrote: JD, I've stated my opinion and I could care less whether you agree with it. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me. You are free to think and feel any way you chose to. We are not going to agree so we might as well stop debating about this issue.


That
Edited by Bob of QF on 11/30/2008 18:02
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Bob of QF
JDHURF wrote:

Are you serious? I responded to that several posts ago. It was a fallacious analogy, as I demonstrated. Your eyerolling notwithstanding.


I read your "response".

It was a dodge, a nit-pick.

You completely missed the main point; you used a red-herring as your "argument".

Your use of a tiny fraction of the whole that is "christianity" as an example misses the main thrust:

The majority of christians should be held accountable for the violent actions carried out in the name of their religion.


This is even more apt, when speaking of Muslims: for the Koran is even more violent in it's precepts than the bible is.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
JDHURF
Bob of QF wrote: Actually, I DO think that as long as they are promoting a book, which leads some people to violent behavior, they ARE ethically responsible.

You state, "that's just pure nonsense". I disagree. It it was, I would see your point, but I don't agree with it.

That it will EVER turn out that these people, who are ethically responsible for their book, will ever be held accountable?


There
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JDHURF
Bob of QF wrote:Your use of a tiny fraction of the whole that is "christianity" as an example misses the main thrust:

The majority of christians should be held accountable for the violent actions carried out in the name of their religion.



You have it completely backwards. The majority of Christians don
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Bob of QF
JDHURF wrote:
[quote]Bob of QF wrote:Your use of a tiny fraction of the whole that is "christianity" as an example misses the main thrust:

The majority of christians should be held accountable for the violent actions carried out in the name of their religion.



You have it completely backwards. The majority of Christians don
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
Bob of QF
[quote]JDHURF wrote:
You have it completely backwards. The majority of Christians don
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
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