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America is inherently violent
JohnH
One only needs to look at the founding of that country to start to make this conclusion. The entirety of it was stolen from indigenous peoples through force of arms, causing the deaths of millions.

The Americans stole much of the southwest part of their country from Spanish and Mexican colonists by war.

Americans engaged in one of the most violent of civil wars known. At the battle of Sharpsburg (Antietam) more than 23,000 were killed and wounded in one day. They were fighting their own brothers.

Consider the Spanish-American war, where again particularly in the Philippines, many were killed and some of the torture techniques still in use were started. This war was started for strictly geo-political reasons.

American entered into World War 1, primarily a conflict between European colonial powers, which posed no direct threat to American interests.

An argument can be made that World War 2 was forced on the Americans. Still one should look at the way that they ended it, becoming the only nation to ever use an atomic weapon in war, in the process killing hundreds of thousands of mostly civilians.

In the course of their history Americans have actively encouraged the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments in various states, Chile, Iran, Guatemala and elsewhere. They have encouraged and in fact trained death squads that were used by mostly Central American governments to suppress poor populations. The whole of their approach to the South and Central Americas is to encourage the violent suppression of any faction that does not agree with American hegemony.

America entered into an entirely unnecessary war in south East Asia that lead to the deaths of 53,000 of their own people and millions of Vietnamese. In the course of that war they used chemical weapons which continue to cause death and destruction.

Currently in response to the deaths of some 3,000 Americans and the destruction of several buildings the Americans have engaged in wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which have killed hundreds of thousands of Afghanis and Iraqis.

I think it is clear to conclude that Americans are inherently violent. One might find that the cause for this is the social-political makeup of the country and how they are trained from youth to see America as exceptional and without flaw. As a consequence of this they willingly go along with their government without question.

I think that in fact the main problem is that they are a predominately christian nation.
 
seeker
You forgot to mention that its a breeding ground for Christian terrorism.
 
RayvenAlandria
Humans are inherently violent, as are most mammals.
 
Sinny
they are trained from youth to see America as exceptional and without flaw. As a consequence of this they willingly go along with their government without question.


You struck a nerve with me here. I think the same here. Ever notice how it's America leads the world, America, one nation under god meaning we are #1 because the god is protecting us. This country seems to like wars but then I could say the same for the Middle East. First it's we are the underdog and want peace yet we start wars or antagonize another Country getting involved in wars we have no business getting involved with. Seems like the Country uses the underdog excuse to go to war and show everyone we are the leader of all Countries. Also religion ususally does and almost always plays a part in the excuse to do so if not the reason.
 
catman
JohnH: The USA entered WW1 because of simmering discontent about the sinking of the Lusitania, with 128 Americans killed (even though it was later shown that the ship was carrying war materiel), but more immediately because of the Zimmerman affair, in which a telegram was intercepted that offered Mexico the "lost territories" of the ssouthwestern US if Mexico would take Germany's side.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
seeker
Catman - Do you not see the parallel JohnH is drawing?
 
JohnH
Seeker, my apologies for not mentioning the School of the Americas or what it is called now.

RayvenAlandria, I would point out that although carnivorous mammals tend to violence toward other species only man tends to violence toward its own specie. The only thing I know where mammals hurt their own specie is when males fight for mating rights.

Sinny, You are correct American exceptionalism has been used repeatedly for mischief.

Catman, I wonder how sending troops to europe protected us from aggression from Mexico.

I also wonder why no one but Seeker got my point and he did that right away.
 
Cynic
If the Germans are defeated, Mexico would have no one to side with.
 
JDHURF
I disagree with you JohnH. American's are not necessarily inherently violent - as the 400,000 strong protest against the Iraq war at the Capitol demonstrates - it's the state that is inherently violent, as are all states.
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
Cynic
Help! Help! We're being oppressed! Now you see the violence inherent in the system!
 
seeker
JohnH wrote:
Seeker, my apologies for not mentioning the School of the Americas or what it is called now.

...

I also wonder why no one but Seeker got my point and he did that right away.


This thread has become one of the funniest I've ever read
 
JohnH
JDHURF, In fact I am probably the only other person on this board who understands that the state is violence and agrees with you. I do not agree that around 0.1% of the American population demonstrating against the current war proves much of anything.

Catman, I continue to not understand how waging war in Europe protected us from Mexico.

Seeker, I do not think it is funny but I would agree that this tread is odd.
 
catman
JohnH: I only pointed out why the USA (ostensibly, if you like) entered WW1, not that it was necessarily a good idea, although it was inevitable. The Germans in 1917 were simply trying, in a diplomatically inept way, to talk Mexico into making war on the USA so they would be distracted by problems at home and stay out of the European war. Germany offered to help Mexico with their putative invasion, at least with supplies.

I didn't say any of it made sense and was not defending it. Even if Kaiserine Germany had defeated France, it would not have been able to subdue the UK, not with Britain's fleet to protect it, and the US was never in danger, although the submarine warfare that Germany practiced in WW1 threatened American shipping and passenger travel. The resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare by Germany was actually even more a reason for the USA to enter WW1 than the Zimmerman telegram was. The latter was simply the last straw, just as the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Serbia was to WW1.

If I went off on a tangent with my comment about WW1, I regret it. Also, it seems that you were rather impatient to get a reply from me. I have been working a lot lately and was not evading your question.
Edited by catman on 12/01/2008 02:13
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
JohnH
Catman, My apologies to you for repeating my question. It was done out of sloppiness on my part not intent. I would offer as a suggestion that you look into the internal political use of World War 1 such as the jailing of Eugene V. Debs and the subsequent Palmer raids on radical unionists like the IWW. That war performed useful service for the american state against its people.
 
Sugarfree
If i were going to generalise i would say America is not inherently violent but inherently greedy. The USA helped out the allies in both world wars and for that we are eternaly greatfull obviously. But the amount of debt the allies were in to the USA after both wars was astronomical.
The amount the USA consumes each year, particularly of fossil fuels and the such also support my suggestion of inherent greed. As does the fact that the USA government seems to be perminantly capitalistic. But then i suppose Britain was little better back in the days of the British empire...
 
Sugarfree
RayvenAlandria wrote:
Humans are inherently violent, as are most mammals.

I was going to say this as well. And John, there are plenty of examples of mammals fighting each other. Not just for the sake of mating, also for food, territory, in defence of a family or pack, etc. Much like humans fight for food (resources, really), territory (more hisoricaly but not so long ago), family, gangs or country, etc.
 
seeker
catman wrote:
JohnH: I only pointed out why the USA (ostensibly, if you like) entered WW1, not that it was necessarily a good idea, although it was inevitable. The Germans in 1917 were simply trying, in a diplomatically inept way, to talk Mexico into making war on the USA so they would be distracted by problems at home and stay out of the European war. Germany offered to help Mexico with their putative invasion, at least with supplies.

I didn't say any of it made sense and was not defending it. Even if Kaiserine Germany had defeated France, it would not have been able to subdue the UK, not with Britain's fleet to protect it, and the US was never in danger, although the submarine warfare that Germany practiced in WW1 threatened American shipping and passenger travel. The resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare by Germany was actually even more a reason for the USA to enter WW1 than the Zimmerman telegram was. The latter was simply the last straw, just as the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Serbia was to WW1.

If I went off on a tangent with my comment about WW1, I regret it. Also, it seems that you were rather impatient to get a reply from me. I have been working a lot lately and was not evading your question.


Germany and France were pretty much stalemated. In fact all the evidence suggests that Germany was about to sue for peace, claiming of course all the French territory they had captured. Our entry into WWI changed things mainly because we caught the Germans in the midst of pulling back as the first step in de-militarizing.

Oddly enough our entry is probably what eventually caused WWII. Without our intervention the French would have had to accept their losses and the allies would never have been able to impose the Weimar Republic in Germany. You have to question whether Hitler would have ever even come to power.
 
Sugarfree
Seeker, Id say it was more the unrealistic demands of compensation from the allies that caused world war 2 than the establishment of the Weimar Republic.
 
seeker
Sugarfree wrote:
Seeker, Id say it was more the unrealistic demands of compensation from the allies that caused world war 2 than the establishment of the Weimar Republic.


They were part of the same deal. You are right though that it wouldn't have mattered what the government was, it was doomed to failure by the huge compensation demands.
 
JohnH
I want to respond to a couple of points.

Sugarfree, The American state tends to be greedy and uses violence to further that greed. Point well made and accepted.

I will also agree that carnivorous mammals do use violence to defend territory. I do not understand that to include the actual death of the defeated. It may come from starvation but I do not think that it is the direct result of combat. I would ask to be corrected if I am wrong. Humans I think are different in that regard.

Now I will dispense with subtlety.

It is easy to reduce human violence to a single cause. Witness the well known argument that atheists lack morals because the two most notorious of killers, Mao and Stalin, were nominal atheists.

I was trying to make the point that any human group/state/religion can be made to look inherently violent. While the basic logic may have some validity it also runs the risk of oversimplification.

Those of you who read the total of my initial post would see that I blamed christianity for american violence. No one seemed to argue with that. I would ask is it that simple.



 
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