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Nonhuman vs. Human abuse
Theory_Execution
People and other animals are abused daily, it is a certainty (well statistically certain) that there is someone being abused right now as I type this - but for me it is a confusing issue.

I often get stuck on the reason for why I find one more offensive than the other. For instance, from a biological point of view we are all related, and it can be argued that as such we should respect everything where possible.

Yet our species has survived so well because of its insular nature, group instinct and tribal dynamics.

Yet if I ever see a video of a man being beaten (or killed) and then one of a pet/farm animal being beaten or killed, I find myself more offended by the latter.


This seems backwards to me, but thats the reactions I get.

I often tally it up to the measure of choice, in a lot of instances the animal never has a choice to be in that situation - but the videos of beaten men do, they have either brought about the circumstances or been somewhere that is obviously dangerous.

Maybe thats it, I have no experience (other than reading articles) about defenseless people being beaten (disgusting as it is) and maybe I am stuck on the visual aspect.

Needless to say I have also thought about what I would do if I came across a situation of an animal being beaten, and a person being beaten.

In both cases I think I would get violent myself. I dont have much faith in the judicial system and think justice is rarely meated out, maybe that impacts upon my thoughts towards vigilantism.


What are your thoughts on this confused issue, and do you have any questions that may help me figure myself out a bit more?
 
cheshiredragon
and with this I am out. i do not want to talk about this shit anymore, it needs to be dropped
That's right, I said it...
 
Cynic
It may be the same reason we get more upset when children and babies are abused moreso than when adults are, which comes down to capacity to understand and defend. When we see or hear about something like that, our empathy tells us how we'd feel in their situation, and the more pathetic the situation, the worse we feel it is.

Vigilantism I think is a case where difference between intentions and reality is difficult to control. As much as it could help, it could easily harm, and does so even in the best case scenario. Even if vigilanties act on good information in what could be considered proper ways, damage is done anyone whose self of well-being includes the idea (however illusury) that the systems in place are working to protect them. And of course, for every Batman there are five unruly lynch mobs meteing out indiscriminate "justice" for crimes unproven for offenses particular to the mob in question.

For those reasons, I feel its best not to encourage or legitimize it.
 
RayvenAlandria
There are different reasons, we are all individuals and there's no cookie cutter answer. Some people feel as you do and get more upset about animals being abused than humans being abused, some people are the opposite.

For those who get more upset about animals being abused it could be that they have resentment towards other humans, so they don't have much sympathy for them, or it could be that they are bombarded by drama in fictional TV shows so they are desensitized and it doesn't seem *real* when they see humans abused. It could be that they would harm other people if they could get away with it but thinking of doing the same to an animal makes them feel guilty because they can't think of a way to justify the abuse, so seeing animal abuse makes them uncomfortable whereas human abuse doesn't.

For those who aren't too upset by animal abuse but get very upset about human abuse, it could be that they were raised on a farm and killing animals was no big deal so it doesn't faze them all that much when they see an animal abused. It could be that they were bitten by a mean dog (or whatever) as a child so they hate dogs and seeing them abused doesn't bother them.

We could go on speculating for days. Each person has different reasons for feeling and thinking the way they do. If you wonder why you feel the way you do, only you can analyze yourself and figure out why you think and feel the way you do. Your reason may be very different from someone else who has the same end result. (Being upset by animal abuse but not much by human abuse).
 
catman
Rayven: That's an insightful post IMO. I am fairly sure I fit into the first group, as I admit to being something of a misanthrope, although I don't think I'm "desensitized" by TV. There is a difference between killing animals for food and abusing them. I don't hate dogs, but Catman can't honestly say they are his favorite animals. Still, I don't like seeing them (or any other animals, or people) abused.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Hypatia
Theory_Execution wrote:
People and other animals are abused daily, it is a certainty (well statistically certain) that there is someone being abused right now as I type this - but for me it is a confusing issue.

I often get stuck on the reason for why I find one more offensive than the other. For instance, from a biological point of view we are all related, and it can be argued that as such we should respect everything where possible.

Yet our species has survived so well because of its insular nature, group instinct and tribal dynamics.

Yet if I ever see a video of a man being beaten (or killed) and then one of a pet/farm animal being beaten or killed, I find myself more offended by the latter.


This seems backwards to me, but thats the reactions I get.

I often tally it up to the measure of choice, in a lot of instances the animal never has a choice to be in that situation - but the videos of beaten men do, they have either brought about the circumstances or been somewhere that is obviously dangerous.

Maybe thats it, I have no experience (other than reading articles) about defenseless people being beaten (disgusting as it is) and maybe I am stuck on the visual aspect.

Needless to say I have also thought about what I would do if I came across a situation of an animal being beaten, and a person being beaten.

In both cases I think I would get violent myself. I dont have much faith in the judicial system and think justice is rarely meated out, maybe that impacts upon my thoughts towards vigilantism.


What are your thoughts on this confused issue, and do you have any questions that may help me figure myself out a bit more?


confused issue indeed.

In many instances I feel animals have fewer voices to speak for them and other protectors, and we know that. How is it that struggles of the weakest, or most vulnerable, affect people who care so passionately? Those who will do the right thing will do it for human or animal, I think.
 
RayvenAlandria
As I mentioned in that other thread, I also think that sometimes the reason people get upset about an animal being abused, but not another person, is that they identify more with the helpless animal (in that case, a cat), than they do another person. Not that they feel like a cat per se, more like they identify with the feeling of helplessness and that feeling is so uncomfortable that it elicits a full blown fight or flight response.

When you see another person being abused you still see the individual as separate from yourself. We're territorial, so any human that is not bonded to us is *an outsider* and not fully trusted or cared about as much as a loved one would be. Whereas a cat, (or whatever animal), can represent self in our psyche and trigger our survival instincts.

Anyway, that's my midday philosophical musings on the subject.


My cat agrees with me.
:laughcat:
 
Theory_Execution
I knew as soon as I wrote the word, vigilantism it was not what I wanted to say, but maybe it was.

I cant imagine myself ever going to lengths to find out someone address, follow them home, bully them in public etc - but say I caught a man raping a woman I have a very clear image in my mind of what I would do.


I am a meat eater, but have not grown up on a farm - have been on holidays to Ireland which were always farm based, went on a rabbit hunt as a child - had the old blood smeared on my face - and I do think all children should be given the chance of killing something, to then watch it be prepared and then eaten.

Multiple reasons for that really, big ones being a bit of education over where food comes from would be good, so that people can better judge the foods they eat, and also it would be a quick decider for people who are unsure about meat (aparently self sustaining countries will only be likely if meat intake drops dramatically).

All that said hunting for hunting sake, and killing for killing sake doesnt interest me, I avoid stepping on snails and rarely swat flies.


I think it comes to a scale of vulnerability, pets being utterly dependant upon their owners, in that as has been said, they cannot go and talk about it to anyone, children as they are in a similar situation and I think lastly grown men.

Cheshiredragon, I hope your not trying to control what others speak about on this website, this post, although started by the shit you mention, has been something I have wondered about for years and never fully understood.

It started about the time I watched the first American to be kidnapped and beheaded, the only shock I derived from it being that the news had lied about the way he was killed, they passed it off as a clean strike through the neck, it was hacked off with a short blade.

I couldnt understand why I had little reaction to it. Maybe because we see it in films, we hear about similar things in the news all the time.
 
RayvenAlandria
If I came across someone raping another person, genders irrelevant, I would most likely kill the perp.
 
Theory_Execution
Yup, thats how I feel about it. Now why is that? If I found a man kicking another man to death I would do my best to stop it, but I cant say that I would try to kill them.

Thats whats so odd about all of this for me, it depends on the type of animal, their age/disparities in age, and the form of abuse.

This is why I dont think the thread worthless.
 
Hypatia
I see by some basic searching that we aren't the only ones who contemplate these issues within this thread.

Here's a video clip called 'Hero' from a kind of generic looking, but previously unknown to me site:

http://www.americ...ro-60.html

American Humane - an organization I've never heard of before. My apologies T-E, GP, NelMarr, willie, et el, that there weren't any British or other studies included with these.

I like the way much of this is proposed and worded.

http://www.americ...-link.html

Thoughts, objections, additions, protests, ignores, etc., etc.
Edited by Hypatia on 02/25/2009 02:14
 
catman
I've never heard of that organization before either, but also like it. It only makes sense that is someone is a mean bastard to one category of living thing, s/he is likely to be a mean bastard to others as well.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Hypatia
Or that if they're inclined to feel for and help one they're inclined to feel for and help the other, even if, for some reason, they have a tendency to feel more 'emotional' when one is abused than the other.

 
catman
Exactly, the converse would be true. Either one has empathy for other life or doesn't.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Theory_Execution
Another thing partly related is joing the army. I couldnt do it myself, I understand that they do a lot of humanitarian work, help out after natural and other sorts of disasters, but their essential role is to kill the enemy.

The enemy being ofcourse other people, who are just as dependant on the men at the top getting it right, which they often dont.
 
Hypatia
Sometimes its just about doing what needs to be done then - helping who/what needs help, and it doesn't necessarily have to be about 'emotions' or such.

 
Hypatia
So the little video with the child being shaken and screamed at by a woman from the AH site sends a good message, but I have a feeling it wouldn't have taken nearly that long for most of us to step in between the child and the woman, with 911 already dialed on our cell phones and to have kept the child safely out of reach of the woman until help arrived.

So again, regardless of what we 'feel' when it comes to human abuse vs. animal abuse, I think most of us would just do what needs to be done to stop abuse when we see it and protect the abused to the best of our ability.

But what is done with the 'outrage' afterwards, before the next abuse, in between abuses - of any being?
 
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