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Single Pay Health Insurance on the Ropes
derF
It appears that the conservative agenda is going to be fulfilled even though conservatives are a minority in national government at the moment.

The Government Accounting Office, (GAO) has determined that there are insufficient funds and insufficient venues of revenue to finance a single payer national health plan.

Conservatives have practically swamped the boat as they pile on in favor of maintaining the status quo as far as health insurance in concerned. After all they are the ones who created this huge deficit to support their supporters. They are perfectly willing to continue supporting Giant Pharmaceuticals and Health Insurance Companies and Profit Oriented Physicians as they gouge the very life out of middle and low class consumers. After all, these are the businesses that financed the conservative's campaigns and they MUST be reimbursed.

I BEG of you, those of you who are United States citizens, please write to your congressmen and to your senators and plead that they support a national single payer health care system so that ALL of our citizens have health insurance and that no one will be denied health care simply because they have fallen on hard times or just don't earn a high enough income to warrant consideration by a very profit motivated health insurance provider.

EDITED? You betcher britches it was edited. Who do you think this is? Anyway?
Edited by derF on 06/22/2009 03:33
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
catman
Well, said, derF. It's hard to believe, but I can remember when the commercials accompanying the networks' evening news programs were not 75% pharmaceuticals and OTC drugs. I'm so tired of "Ask your doctor about...", as if the (bought and paid for) doctor needed to be prompted.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
derF
Another still born thread.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
catman
Hey, my post should count for something...Sad
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
derF
It does Catman. But what is worrisome is that, here, on a supposedly liberal, progressive forum, that only two of its members even have an opinion on something that has the potential of not only bringing America to its knees, but of being its demise.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
catman
Yes, but my post should be equivalent to hundreds of ordinary posts. Just kidding...! I suppose no one wants to talk about the matter. Also, don't forget that some people are socially liberal but fiscally conservative.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
sin
DerF I'm not so sure I fully understand the 'single payer Health Insurance'. I need it put in laymans terms for this laylady. Hey that made me think of a 60's song "lay lady lay" I can't remember who sang it but I can hear the tune and voice in my head now :ack:

Is it government run? Is it a public plan? what?

If it's government run well then I don't want it but then what other choice do we have. If we have government run healthcare would that mean everybody would have to have it or just people without insurance. What about people who are already insured? I'm thinking of the incentivezed government employees are what we will get at healthcare facilities. Have you taken a look at most underpaid government employee's....I don't mean the elected officials or those in management. I mean the average drones like the postal workers. When I go to the Doctor, hospital, pharmacy, optometrist do I have to pay extra to cover people who don't have health insurance with single payer healthcare?

One thing I do know is that the Republicans are in bed with the Pharmaceutical Companies and possibly the Health Insurance Companies and Auto Insurance Companies. We already know about the Oil Companies. So why wouldn't government do the same if we have government healthcare such as cut down on quality to cover quantity. I know Obama understands if an 80 yr old needs surgery and is dyeing anyway to question if it's worth it to pay for that surgery problem is what if that 80 yr old has life left in them, a will to survive as opposed to given up or just ready to go but doesn't have the right to die with dignity option.

Ok I got to stop now if I edit this one more time I becoeme DerF the second only not as funny Pfft
Edited by sin on 06/28/2009 21:36
 
catman
sin wrote:One thing I do know is that the Republicans are in bed with the Pharmaceutical Companies and possibly the Health Insurance Companies and Auto Insurance Companies.

No "possibly" about it. Mitch McConnell really pissed me off royally today, when I saw a clip of him stating that the way to get the outrageous healthcare costs down was to eliminate what he called the "junk lawsuits" against doctors for malpractice. As if they are the main reason for the outrageous healthcare costs! Totally a tool, he is. (Sorry about the Yoda-like syntax.)
Edited by catman on 06/29/2009 00:15
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
sin
Sheesh that was his reason. What an asshat. Hey I'm no expert but I can see it's not just just the Doctors over charging.
Medical School is extremely expensive. Add to that the cost of renting an office, facility, technology, etc. Everything necessary to have a place for the patient to come to not just the doctor and staff. Now add the fact that the cost of plastic has sky rocketed due to the price of oil and everything else. It's expensive to run any medical facility. I understand the Doctors need to make a profit, pay their expenses which, of course, includes the huge loans they have to pay. Lets not forget the premiums they have to pay for their insurance.
We all agree no one should go without medical treatment and Insurance. There's more to it than just requesting/demanding our Government do something and suggest which plan we want. The President has to consider the Doctor, Patient, Hospital, Facilities, Medical Company who supply the medical materials and drugs too, etc etc. everyone and everything involved I say that in case I left anything out that has to be considered and necessary to have to make the system work. It needs to start by getting the cost of Medical School down and the cost of medical materials down. Those costs contribute to fees for services to go up and in turn contributes to the cost of Insurance Premiums to go up.

What about people who are already insured? Do they lose their Insurance or is the plan only for the un insured for now. Thing is those who get Insurance from their work may be forced to join in with a global or national system by their employer and that scares some people. What they don't realise is that it would eventually have to happen or the employer won't be able to pay the premiums if it continues the way things are going. The next best choice as opposed to not affording Insurance to their employees would be to phase out what they do have for a cheaper package/type of Insurance. Instead of going to any Doctor the patient choose to go to they will have to go by which Doctor/Facility is in the Insurance book and check for who is "In Network" as opposed to who isn't. It costs less for the Insurance Company to have Doctors/Facilities willing to stick to an agreed list of costs for treatments than it is to allow the patient to go anywhere they choose and the patient has to then pay a percentage of the bill or a deductible. Sometimes people can be little hypocondriacs and run up a huge tab even after paying the deductible. There's a lot we never think about that runs up the tab on premiums and the cost billed to the Insurance Company. They want to profit too but the way expenses are going up it's becoming very hard for anyone to profit in the Medical Profession except the drug Companies and supply Companies. Lets not forget, and I hate to blame the patient, the people who go to the hospital for every little thing that doesn't require the need to go to the hospital.

What about the elderly? Some people who are elderly and don't have any life left in them are put through surgery when the Doctor knows full well it's their time. Some elderly people aren't given a chance by the Doctor because of their age and condition when it's not their time. What about the elderly who are terminal and just want something to stop the pain but no more surgery but the family and or Doctor say it will be best for and the patient wants it but is going to die shortly even with the surgery. I hate to say it but sheesh it sounds so cold to say but some people you just can't save. They fear death so much they will go through anything to fight it even when they can't win. Yes it's great to be able to buy some time but when it's so little time is it worth it to have it done and the Insurance Companies have to be the big bad asses who have to consider this because they pay the expense. The Doctor won't always care about that, not all Doctors of course, they want to make money. Ask surgeon if you need surgery of course you most likely will need it. I could go on but I'm getting tired of typing and need to think this through more.
Edited by sin on 06/29/2009 19:34
 
derF
Sin,

Let me see if I can help make things a bit more clear for you in as simple an explanation as I can manage for a subject that is quite complicated.

Single-payer health insurance is a term used in the United States in which doctors, hospitals, testing laboratories and pharmacies are all paid from a single fund. Being paid from a single fund is usually connected to universal health insurance or coverage for all U. S. citizens. Single-payer health insurance could be administered nationally, statewide or locally. It would be used to pay health care personnel that are in the private or public sector, just as it would be used to pay public or private health care facilities.

Most countries in the free world have a single pay health care system. Statistics show (go to the AMA website or google the General Accounting Office, [GAO] easy to verify) that the United States spends more, per capita, on health care than any other country in the world. By that I mean that America spends nearly twice as much for every person in the United States on health care than any other country on the planet. And yet forty million of us have NO insurance whatsoever and our health care ranks nearly dead last of all free countries. The United States does very poorly, for all the money it spends, as measured by rates such as infant mortality, heart disease mortality and cancer mortality.

There are a plethora of contributing factors to this dilemma. First and foremost is the fact that health insurers are companies bound and determined to make healthy profits from its victims. Er, I mean, patients. 40 percent of the money we pay for health insurance goes to administrative fees and grossly inflated executive salaries. Medicare, conversely, only absorbs 2 percent to cover its administrative costs.

Americaís love of litigating, to improve oneís bottom line, also raises medical costs. Doctors are forced to pay astronomical fees for malpractice insurance. They, in turn, pass them on to their victims. Er, I mean, patients. And in order to avoid being sued for malpractice many doctors use a shotgun approach to medicine. Ordering every possible associated test and subscribing the very latest and most expensive medications to show that they are too competent to be accused of malpractice. The insurance companies are forced to pay for all this unneeded medical care and merely pass it on by raising insurance rates to their victims. Er, I mean, patients.

And then there are our very good friends in the pharmaceuticals. Ahh, yes. Americans, on the average, pay up to four times what other free world countries pay for exactly the same prescription. And about the best reason the pharmaceuticals can come up with is that when producing new drugs, what with all the testing and licensing and insuring required, they have to recoup their losses somewhere. And since other free world countries refuse to pay these obviously crippling prices they are left with their American victims. Adding insult to injury they use their political muscle to prevent generic versions of the drug to be sold in they United State while they continue to bilk their victims. Er, I mean, patients.

Well, anyway, all these blood sucking businesses realize, deep down inside, that what they are doing is morally criminal. But, unfortunately, greed is the stronger motivator. So in order to assure that they guarantee their place at the money trough these Giant Insurers, Medical Companies, Pharmaceuticals, and Doctorís Associations lobby their congressmen like there is no tomorrow. They spend millions paying for President's and Senatorís and Congressmenís campaigns so that when any legislation comes around ,that might pull the plug on their cash cows, it gets lost, or vetoed or drowned in an ocean of filibustering. Itís an enormous amount of money but that's all right. These giant corporations just pass it along to their patients. Er, I mean, victims.


Edited nearly an infinite number of times.
Edited by derF on 06/30/2009 02:47
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
sin
Derf you explained that very well me, right to the point, easy to absorb, well somewhat for me lately LOL. I have to re-read this agian to be sure I get it. Who pays the premiums to the Insurance Company to cover everybody? I think it's the taxpayers who do.

I'm not sure I know about Doctors Ordering every possible associated test and subscribing the very latest and most expensive medications to show that they are too competent to be accused of malpractice. For the purpose of preventing malpractice suits. I thought that was due to the Insurance Company making it mandatory now to prevent further more expensive testing done. Such as when I went to the Doctor about pain in my shoulder. I had to get an x-ray taken first before the Doctor could even writhe up a prescription for an MRI. That to me was a waste to time and money since I knew judging by the pain it wasn't broken. Also I had a problem with a Doctor, who thought I needed a Primary Physician and he was it, wrong. He refused to allow me to go to a foot Doctor when I had pain in my foot. The rat bastard. He insisted I didn't need a foot Doctor. I said screw him and went to one anyway. My Insurance paid 80% I paid the remaining 20%. I found out I had I not gone to the foot Doctor the problem would have gotten worse and eventually I would have needed surgery, minor but still surgery. That was avoided by going to the right doctor.

The problem I also have or rather question is if we do have this single payer plan would we need to have a primary care physician? would we need one in Internal Medicine? The problem with that is the one I just described and the fact that some Doctors have an agenda....pay thy self. They don't want to recommend a specialist or another specialist. What about people who have a history of heart disease in their family and they go to the foot Doctor and want him/her to recommend a place for cardiology, have Doppler done? after finding out it's not the foot that's causing the pain in the foot because there's no evidence it's the foot?

Sounds start all over from scratch to make it work. I think Doctors should have to compete more with each other to get patients not victims. I noticed some diagnostic centers are already starting to do this because they are loosing customers, er um I mean patients LOL I learn from you Derf. They make a deal with the Doctor and/or patient to accept the Insurance as payment in full or they lose that customer, oops I mean perspective patient. if they aren't in the book or on a list from the Ins. Company I don't go to them unless I have no other choice.

I'm going to look into this more when I have more time so I can learn more. We need to stop the goddamn lobbying from big Corporations. *sigh* that just doesn't seem possible in this Country.
 
derF
Sin wrote: I'm not sure I know about Doctors Ordering every possible associated test and subscribing the very latest and most expensive medications to show that they are too competent to be accused of malpractice. For the purpose of preventing malpractice suits. I thought that was due to the Insurance Company making it mandatory now to prevent further more expensive testing done.


Sin, you contradicted yourself, I think, with that question. Not all doctors do order up unnecessary test to cover their asses but many do. Insurance companies are more apt to deny excessive testing to save costs. Doing, in effect, what right wingers fear will happen if the government takes over health care insurance. They use their fear tactics to scare us into thinking that if the government is in charge we will have politicians coming between us and our health care choices. As it stands right now we have greedy profit motivated plutocrats coming between us and our health care. And we have some of the worst health care in the free world and we pay twice as much per person than any other countries and yet 40 million of us are uninsured. We are getting royally fucked. But, being the silly Americans that we are, we allow Big Insurance, Big Pharmaceutical, Big Medical Equipment companies, Big medical unions and their politician pawns to intimidate us into believing that we Americans aren't capable of developing a single pay government controlled health care plan that is better than the picked over skeletal remains of the one they offer us now.

Use this internet to go to some sites that originate in countries like France and Canada and Germany and talk to them. Ask them if they hate their single pay systems. You will find out first hand that they are very happy with the system and actually feel sorry that we Americans have to live in fear of catastrophic health problems that will spell the financial ruin of so many of us. Yes even many of us that had the so called health insurance as is offered in this country.

AND THEY DON'T PAY HARDLY ANY DEDUCTIBLES ! ! ! ! ! ! It is TOTAL health care coverage. I can't believe how totally fucked over the American people are and yet we still allow theses ass holes to blindly lead us around by the nose while they pick our pockets.
Edited by derF on 06/30/2009 22:02
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
JohnH
derF, I think the inaction by the american public on this issue is that they understand the facts. The entrenched interests that control legislation on medical service in this country will foil any attempt to realistically reform health care for the foreseeable future.
Edited by JohnH on 07/01/2009 20:05
 
sin
DerF what I meant and didn't say it right was that, well.... Let me put it this way.

When I needed an MRI I had to have an x-ray first. I asked the Dr. why and she replied the insurnace company won't pay for an MRI unless I have the x-ray done first to rule out any other possibilities as to why you are in pain. When the x-ray shows you don't have a broken bone, hair line fracture, etc then we can proceed to have the MRI done. The Insurance Compay doesn't want to unnecessarily pay for a more expensive procedure [MRI] before first trying a less expensive procedure[x-ray] to save money. I was like well for fucks sake I know the difference and I'd know if I had a borken bone. Sheesh I had frozen arm as a symptom and that is known for having a problem with the Rotator Cuff. Yes were certainly are getting fucked over and so are the little Companies who can't afford to have health insurance for their employee's. Everyone is going to have to cut back on benefits to keep premiums down, try to get the Doctors on board with new insurance offered to get in network, keep the premiums down and have more employee's pay a co-pay. When they have only the deductable and 20% to pay out of pocket they tend to go to the most idioticly expensive Doctor. Mostly they go the hospital for services provided that they could have done in a less expensive way like go to the Doctor or the lab yourself. Doctors aren't even taking blood that much anymore. They hire fewer employee's to cut back expenses and over charge the patient yet they do less work. so the patient has to run to one place, the lab or the hosptial lab which is more expensive, to have blood drawn then go to the Doctor to find out the test results. Shit the Doctor should do that! I understand we are being royally screwed but sometimes people don't think and take the easy way which is more costly to the patient and the Ins. Company. If Insurance Companies would stop forceing people to only go to the Doctor the Ins. allows then more people would change to the cheaper premium Ins. and get out of tradiditonal Insurance which is higher in premiums. Problem is the freaking crooked Doctors won't go in. Well a lot of them won't but if the patients refused to go to the Doctor who isn't on the list 'in network' then more Doctors would comply and that would be a start in the right direction. Especially when the Hospitals are 'in network' so it's easier to go there without needing an appt. than it is to go to a lab for blood work. Goddammit the Doctor should have to have more responsibility. The worst one's are the one's who only have one person for staff to do everything. From now on any Doctor who gets my business will have to be associated with a facility where there is more than one freaking person as their staff and set up to do a multitude of tasks....sort of like a minin hospital. I know there's a name for them but I can't think of it off hand just now.
Edited by sin on 07/01/2009 18:17
 
derF
Sin, I don't have all the answers. Our health care system is a hugely complicated mess with very many faults, a few pluses, lots of greed and even more opinions on how to fix it. I am going to post letters from an M.D. from Oregon and and M.D. from New York below who were responding to the article that prompted me to post this particular thread in the first place. It is just two men's opinions but those men are in the middle of the maelstrom.

#1

It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of primary care as a major factor in the success of the Mayo Clinic model of health care. Intensely but narrowly trained subspecialists manage even the simplest problems very aggressively, with much higher rates of expensive imaging and invasive procedures. This inflates costs, exposes patients to avoidable procedural complications, and worsens outcomes. Owing largely to a widening pay disparity, today the proportion of medical students entering primary care is falling like a stone, even as the older cohort of family physicians retires en masse. Until this problem is effectively addressed, our high-cost, low-quality medical system will continue to worsen.

Geoffrey Wittig, M.D.
Dansville, N.Y.

#2

A major impediment to minimizing testing is patient expectation. My patient with a viral chest cold expects a chest X-ray, to prove that his two-week cough isn't pneumonia (it isn't), and the mother of my three--year-old patient, who tumbled off the sofa expects a CT scan, to prove that everything will be fine with the child's brain (it will be fine, except for the unknown long-term results of the radiation from the CT scan). When the tests aren't done, the patients leave my E.R. dissatisfied and write complaint letter to the hospital. And, in the rare instance that the viral chest cold later turns into pneumonia, the patient assumes that I "missed it" and want to sue me. Doctors need to be held accountable for over=testing, but let's not forget how patient expectation affects the issue.

Gabriel Ledger, M.D.
Covallis, Oregon

Sin, this is kinda like giving you two different answers to the same question. We Americans are subjected to amazing amounts of hyperbole concerning the doctor/patient interface. Doctors worry about disappointing patients and becoming liable for malpractice and patients worry about their doctor's coming up short on their diagnosis and short changing their patients. It all causes a great deal of unnecessary medical expenditures and both patient and doctor should shoulder some of the responsibility. Until health care become a 'Not for Profit' proposition both physicians and patients will end up on the short end of the stick.


I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
derF
How about a little round of American Health Care Jeopardy everyone?

9 Answers for American Jeopardy

1. This country spends more on health care per capita than any other country in the world.
A. The United States. (Source: National Institute of Health.)

2. According to the World Health Organization this countryís health care outcomes are worse
than almost every other industrialized country in the world.
A. The United States. (Source: World Health Organization.)

3. This country has the highest infant mortality rate of ANY industrialized country in the
world.
A. The United States. (Source: National Institute of Health.)

4. This country has over 46 million people without health insurance or access to health
care.
A. The United States. (Source: National Institute of Health.)

5. In this country medical expenses are now the leading cause of bankruptcy.
A. The United States. (Source: the Congressional Research Service.)

6. This country has a successful, efficient and cost effective national health care plan that has
high ratings with both patients and medical providers.
A. The United States. The plan is called Medicare. (Source: World Health
Organization.)

7. In 2008 the top ten health insurance providers posted profits of OVER 10 BILLION
dollars in this country.
A. The United States. (Source: Fortune 500.)

8. This industry contributed over 48 million dollars to political campaigns in the U.S.
A. The United States Health Insurance Industry. (Source: The Federal Election
Commission.)

9. The President and Congress will not consider single payer health care (Medicare for
all) for U.S. citizens because . . . . .
A. I think you can figure that one out. (Source: Brain.)

Yes in deedy. Royally fucked over again and donít even feel like writing our representatives about it. You reap what you sow, folks.
Edited by derF on 07/02/2009 23:41
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
derF
Sin wrote: Hey that made me think of a 60's song "lay lady lay"


BOB DYLAN
Edited by derF on 07/03/2009 01:27
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
derF
Sin wrote: Derf you explained that very well me, right to the point, easy to absorb, well somewhat for me lately LOL. I have to re-read this agian to be sure I get it. Who pays the premiums to the Insurance Company to cover everybody? I think it's the taxpayers who do.


Sin, you needn't fear paying more for single pay. As I have pointed out many times on this post, Americans pay twice as much as any other modern country per person on health care and get results that come in nearly dead last. If we had single pay health insurance like the rest of the free world we would get better care for less money, wouldn't need to fear going bankrupt for getting sick and would actually give small business' an incentive to grow in our country.
Edited by derF on 07/03/2009 01:28
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
JDHURF
I haven't been around for a while and I'll be damned if I didn't come back to find derF doing a fantastic job articulating and defending my position exactly.
[img]http://www.atheists.org/images/headerLogo.png[/img] is not a valid Image.
 
sin
7. In 2008 the top ten health insurance providers posted profits of OVER 10 BILLION
dollars in this country.
A. The United States. (Source: Fortune 500.)

8. This industry contributed over 48 million dollars to political campaigns in the U.S.
A. The United States Health Insurance Industry. (Source: The Federal Election
Commission.)

Wholly fuck!!! Why don't the politicians or whoever runs for President take the campaign money then when they get elected do the right thing anyway? They must be paying the Admin. even after election.

Would make incentive for illegal aliens to become legal too but the problem with that is, as far as I have been told, is even illegal aliens get better healthcare. If Americans went to another Country they would have to pay regular prices though still much cheaper than what it cost's in the US.

Guess who's writing her representatives ....no brainer there. We need a web site where people can sign a petition for them to make it easier for the general public and worded properly. Question is who would be the one to send in the signed petition(s). WTF grassroots does it for the religious ...they did it when they wanted to keep the 10 commandments.

Also keep count of how many signed the online petitons so we can see if it's worth it to request a vote in the majority. I say that because we don't yet know if enough people [John and Jane Q Public] would vote in the affirmative to have single payer healthcare.

Derf if you don't mind I'd like to wake up and shake up a few more people by copying what you posted on other sites. Would you mind if I did?

I;m not sure if I could post this site on another site because some sites don't like promoting other forums but it's worth a try at least.
Edited by sin on 07/05/2009 22:02
 
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