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Burkas not welcome in France: Sarkozy
sin
I'm liking France and Andre Gerin Grin

To the Bold I'm not so sure I agree with Obama. In one way they should be permitted to wear the clothing of their choice but a head to toe burka isn't really a choice even when they say it is. A head to toe burka is too extreme plus I don't like that the woman wearing it can't be seen and it impairs hers vision as well as breathing. Not getting enough oxygen can lead to dizziness which can be dangerous. A head scarf I could see as acceptable to cover her hair but not her face. I could go on with other reasons but I think you all get my meaning.


Mon Jun 22, 12:40 PM


VERSAILLES, France (AFP) - President Nicolas Sarkozy said on Monday that the burka was not welcome in secular France, condemning the head-to-toe cover as a symbol of subjugation rather than the Muslim faith.

"We cannot accept to have in our country women who are prisoners behind netting, cut off from all social life, deprived of identity," he said. "That is not the idea that the French republic has of women's dignity."

"The burka is not a sign of religion, it is a sign of subservience," he told lawmakers in a major policy speech. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French republic."

The speech came just two weeks after Sarkozy and US President Barack Obama diverged on whether states should legislate on religious clothing, an issue which has sparked controversy in Europe.

France, home to an estimated five million Muslims, passed a law in 2004 banning headscarves or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in state schools in a hotly contested bid to defend secularism.

Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services said she wore a burka and was living in "submission" to her husband.

Sarkozy told a special session of parliament he was in favour of holding an inquiry sought by some French lawmakers into whether Muslim women who cover themselves fully in public undermine French secularism and women's rights.

But the president added "we must not fight the wrong battle, in the republic the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions."

The inquiry proposal has won support from politicians on the left and right, but France's official Muslim council accused lawmakers of wasting time on a fringe phenomenon.

"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," Mohammed Moussaoui, head of the French Council for the Muslim Religion (CFCM), said last week.

There are no official figures but several thousand women are thought to wear the burka in France.

Obama this month defended the choice of some Muslim women to wear the Islamic headscarf.

It is "important for Western countries to avoid impeding Muslim citizens from practising religion as they see fit for instance, by dictating what clothes a Muslim woman should wear," he said.

But Sarkozy told him when the two leaders met in France that his country took a different view.

"Civil servants must not wear any outward sign of their religion, whether they are Catholics, Jewish, Orthodox, Protestants or Muslims," he said, adding that a woman could wear a headscarf provided it was her own decision.

Communist MP Andre Gerin is spearheading the drive for a parliamentary panel that would look at ways to restrict the burka, which he describes as a "prison" and "degrading" for women.

Immigration Minister Eric Besson has warned against reigniting a row on the issue of Islamic dress, saying "France has managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question."
 
Doubting Thomas
One the one hand I defend their right to practice their religion how they see fit, but on the other hand I hate it as a common practice because it shows subservience to men. If men were required to be covered from head to toe, it might be a different story.

BTW, there's nothing in the Koran that states women must be completely covered when in public. It's more a regional custom than it is religious, unless you take into consideration that in Islam women belong to their husbands.

Of course, all the right-wing conspiracy nuts/Christians will see Obama's defense of wearing the burka as promoting Islam. Because, as we all know, Obama is a muslim terrorist. :rol:
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me and not you.
 
Bob of QF
Mon Jun 22, 12:40 PM

But the president added "we must not fight the wrong battle, in the republic the Muslim religion must be respected as much as other religions."



I must ask.....why?

That is, why must religion be respected at all?

I just don't see it, myself.... <shrug>


Religion, at it's heart, is insulting to the concept of being a human being: our intelligence and rationality.

For religion is the very antithesis of rationality. It's akin to animalism; in fact? The very best at being religious are also the very best at being irrational.

To be truly religious, one would needs get a frontal lobotomy... so you could have the faith of a 3 year old.... <eyeroll>
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
derF
Muslim thugs such as the Taliban found burkas very useful. When the allied forces over ran Afghanistan Mullah Omar and his cohorts all put on burkas and walked right past their enemies and right into Pakistan. No woman would want to be associated with those cowards. The only women who wear them are the ones who are forced to. The U.S. should ban burkas also.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
Bob of QF
derF wrote:
Muslim thugs such as the Taliban found burkas very useful. When the allied forces over ran Afghanistan Mullah Omar and his cohorts all put on burkas and walked right past their enemies and right into Pakistan. No woman would want to be associated with those cowards. The only women who wear them are the ones who are forced to. The U.S. should ban burkas also.


I agree. Any 21st century society has no need of such things as burkas-- as pointed out by George Carlin's rant on the 10 commandments: "Spooky Language."

I could have *some* sympathy, if both the men AND the women wore them....but that they are restricted to women only? That's pure-D evil: women as property.
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
RayvenAlandria
Actually, I think the Koran does state that women should remain covered in the presence of men, but I don't care enough to hunt up the proof.

In this day and age it should be illegal though, simply because terrorists and criminals can use the practice to disguise themselves.
 
catman
derF: Some women actually want to wear them. I think it's fine for those who want to, but no one should be forced to.

I'm all for people voluntarily wearing burqas, having Jesus fish on their cars, etc., as it gives me an indication of whom I should avoid if at all possible. If they didn't do so, I might mistake them for rational people.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
sin
Maybe the older women are used to wearing them but I can't see the younger women wanting to wear that head to toe covering. I myself have only seen one young woman covered head to toe in a burka in the US. Truthfully I don't care for it in the US. I think if you're in the US you should dress like a US citizen or at least show your face.

It is sexist and I think the Quran says to cover the hair and cover the chest with the head covering ior extra coverage over the chest. The extra covering of the chest is because the boobs stick out and that would be temptation to the men. Also considered it's not appealing to the woman as she would not look respectable in public any other way. Why the face ended up being covered I'm not sure but last I remember was two reasosn. She is less than the man and the face is her beauty to them anyway. I always thought it was the hair that was a womans crowning beauty and the temptation used in flirtation. It's mostly due to religious conviction that they wear it but it could also be considered their culture. Every culture has religion intertwined in it. Also I read somewhere that they even shave their heads to make them cover their heads. What's next removing their lips to force covering their face. thing is as far as I have seen there's nothing in the Quran about covering the face.

I see it as a security threat more than any other kind of dressing simply because the women can easiy conceal weapons under the burka and you can't see the face to recognize them. Since this isn't a practice that France practices/lives by then why should it be allowed now regaredless of religion. I think Obama is wrong on this and I don't see why everyone has to cater to religion. There's a difference between respecting other people's/cultures beliefs and catering to them. Would they respect our culture/religion/non-religion/dress code if we were in thier Country? I don't think they would.

I see what Neilmar meant in his previous posts.
 
derF
Yes Neilmarr was correct, in my opinion, and I backed him on it. It shows a certain lack of character to migrate to another country to live in better conditions and then try to force your old culture on your new country. Shows a marked lack of class. But so many people lambasted Neil for his opinion that he moved on. As a long time news media reporter he had a very studied view on world affairs. I still communicate with him regularly but I don't think he will be rejoining our group.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
catman
derf: I agree with you. I wish neilmarr would come back, but I don't see it happening. I didn't agree with him on every single point, but he always backed up his opinions with lucid arguments. I still communicate with him too, as you probably know.
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
Doubting Thomas
I do think that burkas are stupid & sexist, but here in the US I believe they should have a right to wear them if they want. Unfortunately, they're usually required to by their husbands and/or religious culture. I believe in freedom of religion, but I also believe strongly in personal freedom. I think they should have a right to wear one if they want but no sensible woman should want to wear one.
You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me and not you.
 
Bob of QF
Actually? There is precedent for limiting the "rights" of religious practice.

A recent example is a kid was forced from his parents, to undergo chemotherapy, which is credited with saving his life.

His idiot parents wanted to use homeopathic "treatment" instead.... which would've let him die.

Another example, is if religious parents abuse their kids in the name of their religion-- those kids are rightfully removed.

I see the burka-wearing idea as abuse. Security issues aside (of which there are many) it is abusive of women to wear those things.

I would make it illegal for them to be in public buildings, on the grounds of security. Malls, government buildings, libraries, grocery stores, etc.

If they want to wear them at home? Have at it. If they wish to interact in a public place with other human beings? They need to act like a human being as well.

When did the quack-notion of "religion" get elevated to a "do not criticize" status?

Why should we respect someone's actions, if they are clearly acting insane?
Edited by Bob of QF on 06/26/2009 16:38
Quantum Junction: Use both lanes

Reality is that which is left, after you stop believing.
 
sin
Bob you pretty much hit it but I'd just like to add that even Mumu's are more acceptable. The abusive part of to the head to toe burka is the head and face part. They can hardly breathe.

DT yes I think they should have that right but I agree with Bob they should then stay at home. If it were American woman or any other women from antoher Country in the Muslim community it would be expected of them to wear what that Country demands them to wear. I'm sick of this crap where they come along and decide it's there way or everybody else isn't being religiously tolerant of them when they aren't in their own Freakin Country.

Derf and Catman I agreed with most of what Neilmarr had to say and some of what Willie had to say. I think what bothered other members, other than Willie, was that Neilmarr was posting alot about the one subject which was Muslims. That was frequently in the media at the time but I guess people do get tired of the same new.

Rayven I agree it should be illegal especially in public places as Bob pointed out. I think it's in the Quran but don't know where and I too don't care to waste time looking it up. Either way if it's there or not its a stupid rule made up by man regardless of the excuse the make up for it. It's all about control, domination and cruelty towards women.

I wonder if it will, over time, come down to American men demanding their wives wear that crap? Only because I see the younger generation of men trying to get the girls/women to accept the idea that man should have more than one [girlfried/woman] at a time.

Their excuse is it's in mans evolution due the need to pregnate. Yeah like I would buy that bullshit excuse. Oh and that's why men choose only young sexy looking women :rolleyes:
 
catman
I think it's dumb to wear one, but some women actually want to, not because they are forced to (which is indeed abuse, IMO). One might say that the women who want to have had their minds abused at some point, I suppose. I still say that it shouldn't be illegal, although if there were a way to differentiate, I'd say that it should be illegal for a woman to be forced to wear one by anyone. It's a difficult point, but I regard it as an individual freedom to wear silly clothing. (You should see some of my T-shirts.)
Edited by catman on 06/27/2009 01:22
"If I owned both Hell and Texas, I'd live in Hell and rent out Texas." - General Sheridan
 
derF
Catman wrote; I think its dumb to wear one, but some women actually want to, not because they are forced to (which is indeed abuse, IMO)


Burkas are hot, uncomfortable and claustrophobic. No normal human being wears them because they WANT to. They might wear them because the man of their life wants them to.

One might say that the women who want to (wear them) have had their minds abused at some point, I suppose.


Brainwashing might explain why someone would WANT to wear a burka, yes !

I suppose. I still say that it shouldn't be illegal, although if there were a way to differentiate, I'd say that it should be illegal for a woman to be forced to wear one by anyone.


It has to be illegal. If burkas are allowed in public then they will be embraced by thieves, terrorist and anyone else who wants to conceal themselves or anything else they are carrying.

It's a difficult point, but I regard it as an individual freedom to wear silly clothing. (You should see some of my T-shirts.)


Again I disagree, the point is easy. burkas are belittling, hot, suffocating, and give whoever wears them complete anonymity and the ability to conceal not only their identity but weapons, explosive belts and any number of illegal items. If they allow burkas then they will halve to allow other articles of clothing that act as garments of concealment.

Edited? You bet your sweet bippy it was edited.
Edited by derF on 06/27/2009 01:56
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
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