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Gullibles travails
derF
The gullibility of the majority of Americans (i.e. middle and lower class) never ceases to amaze me. Their susceptibility to lies, spin and misinformation is profound. Their receptiveness to being manipulated by fear and misdirection confounds me.

When you explain to them that health care is bankrupting America and needs to be reformed before America goes the way of the former Soviet Union they seem to understand. But as soon as an opponent to health care reform suggests that that very reform might prove to be expensive they get cold feet. The democrats blame the republicans and the republicans blame the democrats. And both parties are in the pocket of big business.

The big health insurance companies, pharmaceuticals and investment banks are reaping huge profits while the middle class dies from the shock of burst bubbles, lost pensions, health insurance, homes, incomes and future. Decent white collar middle class jobs are leaving the country in droves while 17,000 Americans lose their health insurance every day. If freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose, than we may soon become the land of the free and the home of the wealthy.
Edited by derF on 07/25/2009 02:16
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
JohnH
derF, I have a small complaint. If you are going to quote Janis Joplin you should give proper credit. This is based on the assumption that Me and Bobby McGee is the source for your last sentence.

That said you are very much correct. It seems so obvious when americans spend something like twice what the rest of the developed world spends on health care people should be very much concerned. It seems so obvious, when most of the advocates who are invited to the white house to talk about heath care reform are making very good money from the health care industry, people should be very much concerned.

As long as around 30 years ago I realized that the health care system, at least the methods of paying for it, were screwed up. A co-worker who, like me, had access to good health insurance was involved in an $80,000 beef with the insurance company. Too many years to remember the specifics but it seemed that the insurance company was trying to avoid an obligation. If I remember correctly it took a lawyer but the co-worker won.

About the same time another co-worker had to bankrupt his father so that his father could collect medicare.

I know a small business owner. I do not remember the exact numbers but it is shocking what he must pay for heath insurance for a two person business. Multiply the numbers just a little and you understand why small businesses are feeling a pinch.

The american public should know, if it payed attention to the news, that they are getting screwed by the health industry. But, even if they are not paying attention to the news and only paying attention to their own life and the lives of people around them, they should realize they are getting screwed by the health industry.

As I have said before here the current legislation should only be the beginning and a tiny one at that.
 
derF
JohnH wrote:
derF, I have a small complaint. If you are going to quote Janis Joplin you should give proper credit. This is based on the assumption that Me and Bobby McGee is the source for your last sentence.


Actually if I were quoting anyone it would be Kris Kristofferson who composed Bobby McGee along with Fred Foster in 1969. And which was subsequently performed by a number of artists in the following years.

Until the American people stop believing everything that they hear without substantiating it with a little research on their own we will continue our downward slide until we either wise up or fail utterly.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
JohnH
My apologies for not properly attributing the lyrics to the correct source, and thank you for the reminder that Kris Kristofferson wrote a lot of good songs. I will say that I attributed the lyric to the person most connected to it in the public eye. Truth be known I could have confirmed the writer of the lyrics by looking it up in one of the various printed references I own, I did not think that was of any great import.

I now have a complaint about style.

I found the juxtaposition of my quote, your correction, followed by a short paragraph about americans not researching things and understanding them a little bothersome. My immediate reaction was you were lumping me into the same category and I found that insulting.

If my immediate reaction was correct I must take most formal and emphatic exception.

If you had wanted to question my knowledge you should have in fact questioned the americans pay twice what others do comment. I tried to look up the exact number but after looking at some 10-12 websites could not find any actual data. I know we in general pay a lot more for health care than most other nations but what the actual difference is I am not sure of.
 
derF
Wow! You sure read a lot into things don't you?
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
Sinny
well if the only way the Government can pay for our healthcare is by raising taxes then guess who's taxes get raised.....The middle class. Always were and always will be the real tax payers in this Country. don't expect the rich to pay it no matter how many times we are promesed this time they will. This is what scares people the thought that they will pay for everyone else who isn't paying into the system. The unemployed won't pay into it. the poor can't afford to, the rich can afford to pay lawyers, etc to find loopholes soo who gets hit with the bill .....the middle class, which is soon to become the lower middle class to the eventually the poor and unemployed.

Medicare isn't that great because there's a lot they don't pay for which is why people who are looking for jobs with healthcare coverage to cover what medicare won't cover.

That's not the only reason people are scared. There are e-mails going out telling people not to accept Obama's plan. Nothing so far showing the right reasons to accept Obama's plan. Here's one:

In England anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it is not covered, being too expensive and not needed.

Obama wants to have a healthcare system just like Canada 's and England's

I got this today and am sending it on. If Obama's plans in other areas don't scare you, this should. Please do not let Obama sign senior death warrants. Everybody that is on this mailing list is either a senior citizen, is getting close or knows somebody that is.

Most of you know by now that the Senateversion (at least) of the "stimulus" Bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:

Bloomberg: Daschle says "health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them."

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that our esteemed Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.

Please use the power of the Internet to get this message out. Talk it up at the grassroots level. We have an election coming up in one year and nine months. And we have the ability to address and reverse the dangerous direction the Obama administration and its allies have begun and in the interim, we can make their lives miserable. Let's do this!

If you disagree, do nothing, and live with the consequences.
 
derF
In England anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it is not covered, being too expensive and not needed.

Obama wants to have a healthcare system just like Canada 's and England's

I got this today and am sending it on. If Obama's plans in other areas don't scare you, this should. Please do not let Obama sign senior death warrants. Everybody that is on this mailing list is either a senior citizen, is getting close or knows somebody that is.

Most of you know by now that the Senateversion (at least) of the "stimulus" Bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:

Bloomberg: Daschle says "health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them."

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that our esteemed Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.

Please use the power of the Internet to get this message out. Talk it up at the grassroots level. We have an election coming up in one year and nine months. And we have the ability to address and reverse the dangerous direction the Obama administration and its allies have begun and in the interim, we can make their lives miserable. Let's do this!

If you disagree, do nothing, and live with the consequences.


A perfect example of unsubstantiated claims and fearmonger tactics used so successfully by the puppets of big business to kill unfavourable legistlation. I know through conversations on this very site that such claims are pure unadulterated bull shit.
Edited by derF on 07/24/2009 15:24
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
JohnH
derF, I think my antenna go up a little too high and get overly sensitive when I see myself quoted. Too many times here that has been the start of someone questioning me in an uncomplimentary manner.

Sinny, The very significant flaw in the "your taxes will be raised" argument regarding universal health care is the fact that properly done the total expenditure for health care will go down. You may in fact pay more taxes but unless the government really screws up your total health care costs will go down. I could not find the exact numbers but the administrative costs and profits of our private health insurance companies is a very significant percentage of total health care costs in this country.

The whole issue of the rich avoiding the sort of taxation that the middle class pay should not be a part of this discussion. It is a systemic problem and not one of this specific issue.

If you think that rationing is not performed by the current american health insurers you frankly have not been paying attention. I remember this argument from the original Clinton proposals. I commented at that time to others that we were already experiencing that with our system and I was correct then and continue to be. One obvious rationing is not accepting people with preexisting conditions. Another is refusing to pay for needed procedures sometimes leading to the death of patients. Care must be taken of course in this area but it can be done with reason. A few years ago Oregon voted on a proposal to limit some of the services provided in their form of medicare. I did not read this in its entirety but I did look at some of the things they were proposing not to cover. They all seemed perfectly reasonable, stuff like not paying for elective cosmetic surgery for terminal patients. Being 62 I am more than a little sensitive to what the reference was quoting when it spoke of the limiting of heart procedures for people over 59. I suspect whoever made that comment was either not entirely accurate or ignored the context in which those limits were enforced. I personally will be watching this with some care.

The e-mail you quoted was essentially the insurance companies talking points. While it may be true that any single payer health care system must be approached with care and methods of payment and availability of care should be carefully considered. Believing the propaganda of people who are currently making shit loads of money from health care is not the approach a thinking person should take.

I would suggest looking at the Physicians for a National Health Program web site or others and consider their arguments.
 
Skeeve
Paying taxes...we all do it, it's the "law". Having medical insurance...those that make enough money have it, it's affordable.

If by paying higher taxes will mean those that can't afford it will have access to it, we all benefit in the long run.

I don't care what you read or what you hear, America does NOT have the best healthcare (for it's average citizens) in the world. America may have the finest doctors and research personnel, but there are at least 5 other countries today that have a higher socialized healthcare system that beats us, handsdown.

The only obstacle is our way it the Insurance Greed Machine. They have far too many politicians in their pockets to go down without a very large and messy fight. Both parties are beholden to this out-of-date, and monopolized system of healthcare that we have accepted as the norm for too many years.

We the people support everything this country does with our taxes. Our country keeping us healthy and medically sound should be the least of their duties.

Why we're even having to debate it shows the level of corruption that infests our Congress and our House. Disgusting.
"The world is my country, and do good is my religion." - Thomas Paine
 
JohnH
I was in Italy in 1968. My tonsils and my neck lymph nodes got very swollen. I explained, as best I could, my problem to someone at the pension where I was staying. I was directed to a clinic just down the street. The Italian doctor did not speak english. He and I communicated as best we could. He wrote out a prescription and it was correct. I do not remember what it cost me but it was not very much. There was no requirement for proof of insurance or ability to pay, there was only pay these small fees and we will take care of you.

If some Italian tourist in america in that same year would have had the same problem it probably would have cost them something like $100 cash money to accomplish the same thing. If that person could not pay the cash money they would have been either turned away or forced to complete multiple forms proving someone's ability to pay.

My wife had to have cataract surgery. She had it in the office of the eye surgeon. Because of that we had to pay extra for the operation. The explanation given by the surgeon was that it was cheaper for them to perform the operation in their own office but that the insurance company preferred use of the local hospital. I am not sure if they apologized for the fact that they caused us to have to spend extra.

All of us know personally that the way health care is being delivered in this country is flawed.
 
Theory_Execution
Yup, that case of those over the age of 59 not receiving heart ops across the board is bullshit. The cases are assessed on a need basis, and when Trusts (regional branches of the NHS that are given certain budgets) are hit hard by some cost or another, the low risk groups and elderly are turned down, so that the money can be better spent on younger more needy patients.

Its a bit of a moral dilemma but thats how the world works. Heres an article about such a case.

http://www.dailym...rgery.html

Notice when you are reading that it is a low risk condition but she gets the treatment anyway. Also lines to note are.

National guidelines set no age limit for the procedure...


These complaining people should also not forget that you can still get health insurace in the UK and have a private health care system behind you if you want.

I think, besides from the obvious benefit to pharma companies and insurance companies, the factor of laziness comes into play. It takes a hell of a lot of work to create a new system, and why bother if you are only going to be in term for a few years. Let the next guy do it.
 
Sinny
I hear it all the time from people over 55. "he doesn't care about us older people" he's going to cut back on healthcare for us" "taxes will go up but not that much only because the coverage will be cut" I hear this shit all the time. I think it's selfish to worry about paying more taxes when people are literally dyeing because they can't afford health coverage that could and would save their lives. Shit if it were me I would want that coverage too regardless of who pays more taxes for me to get it. This is the mentality we are up against and fears Obama must deal with and take from them. I sure a shit don't trust my own Gov't and do expect it to fuck up so bad that the middle class ends up paying the bulk of the taxes needed to cover everybody. What happens when Obama leaves? will it go back to the way it was or will some Republican come along and screw up all the hard work Obama did? it's likely that could happen. These fears they have must be addressed and obliterated now so it can be passed and people can get the the help they desperately need now. They don't think of what's happening to people without coverage and they certainly don't think of the fact, well I think it's fact, that sooner or later it will catch up to everyone...yes everyone. Sooner or later the people being told what to fear will eventually lose their healthcare coverage because they won't be able to afford it unless they are either very rich or very poor and can go to clinics which is worse than what they fear now. Look around in youtube and see their complaints. Some also say they don't want to pay for obese people who are sick. Fuck obesity isn't always the reason a person is sick. It's not always the sick persons fault they are sick goddammit why can't they understand that. They even compare it to recycling being claimed to save money when taxes went up to pay for recycling but they don't see how it helps with cutting costs when we recycle plastic instead of making new plastic and keeping the old that isn't biodegradable which ultimately costs us more money in the long run. It's not the same thing but even still they don't see the long term. They only think about the short term for now. I know we have to considre the long term but when they do finally start to think of it in long term effects they say sooner or later everyone will lose their ability or rather right to choose which kind of coverage they want. I understand that. I prefer to not have to have a primary care physician because that primary physician has too much control over me and I don't care for that bullshit. I much rather prefer to go the professional who specializes in the disease I have rather than be told if I can or not by a primary care physician. I prefer In Network physicians as opposed to those who aren't In Network with my Insurance. Anyway it's hard to get through to some of them and here is another reason why:

DOCTOR'S ORDERS
Why won't Congress enroll in gov't health care?
Democrats exempt themselves from own 'reform'
Posted: July 23, 2009
12:15 am Eastern

By Chelsea Schilling
2009 WorldNetDaily

If government-run health care is such a great idea, why won't members of Congress enroll their own families?

The question has been on the minds of many Americans, but Democrats aren't giving answers. Instead, they are exempting themselves from their own health care "reform."

The Affordable Health Choices Act drafted by Sen. Edward Kennedy's staff and the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee pushes "Americans into stingy insurance plans with tight, HMO-style controls," the Wall Street Journal reports.

At the same time, Page 114 of the act specifically exempts members of Congress from the public plan.

The bill mandates that all other Americans enroll in "qualified" health plans and submit proof of enrollment to the government.

Everyone must report "the name, address, and taxpayer identification number of each individual who is covered under health insurance that is qualifying coverage" and include the "number of months during the calendar year during which each such individual was covered under such health insurance," along with "such other information as the Secretary may prescribe."

Under his plan for health "reform," President Obama has promised Americans that citizens will have the same health care options members of Congress receive. During his presidential campaign, he told an audience in Canton, Ohio, in October 2008: "If you don't have health insurance, you'll be able to get the same kind of health insurance that members of Congress give themselves."

At a news conference June 23, Obama said people will be able to choose their insurance "the same way that federal employees do, same way that members of Congress do."

According to the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, "Federal employees, retirees and their survivors enjoy the widest selection of health plans in the country. You can choose from among Consumer-Driven and High Deductible plans that offer catastrophic risk protection with higher deductibles, health savings/reimbursable accounts and lower premiums, or Fee-for-Service (FFS) plans, and their Preferred Provider Organizations (PPO), or Health Maintenance Organizations (HMO) if you live (or sometimes if you work) within the area serviced by the plan."

Mark McClellan, a doctor and economist at the Brookings Institution, told USA Today he believes Congress gets a great deal
when it comes to health care options.

"It's significantly more generous than most Americans are getting," said McClellan. According to the report, members of Congress also receive medical care from a Capitol doctor for a small charge and my get treatment at military hospitals the same medical care offered to presidents and visiting dignitaries.

"They get what bureaucrats get plus," said Steve Ellis with Taxpayers for Common Sense.

(Story continues below)




In a June 24 ABC News health care forum anchored from the White House by Diane Sawyer and Charles Gibson, Dr. Orrin Devinsky, a neurologist and researcher at the New York University Langone Medical Center, pointed out that members of Congress may propose government health care solutions for the American public that limit medical care options.

Meanwhile, he explained that lawmakers know that if their own family gets sick, they will be able to afford the best care available, even if it's not provided by insurance.

The following is a video of the discussion:


Rep. John Fleming

He asked President Obama if he wouldn't seek outside care for his wife or daughters if they became ill and his public plan limited treatment and tests.

Devinsky asked:

If your wife or your daughter became seriously ill, and things were not going well, and the plan physicians told you they were doing everything that could reasonably be done, and you sought out opinions from some medical leaders in major centers and they said there's another option you should pursue, but it was not covered in the plan, would you potentially sacrifice the health of your family for the greater good of insuring millions or would you do everything you possibly could as a father and husband to get the best health care and outcome for your family?

The president would not pledge not to seek outside care, though he said, "I think families all across America are going through decisions like that all the time. And, you're absolutely right that if it's my family member, if it's my wife, if it's my children, if it's my grandmother, I always want them to get the very best care.

"There's a whole bunch of care that's being provided that every study, that every bit of evidence that we have indicates may not be making us healthier," he said.

But Rep. John Fleming, R-La., a physician, asks if public health care is such a great idea, why don't members of Congress who vote for it actually sign up their own families?

He has offered H. Res. 615 with 53 Republican co-sponsors, which states:

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that members who vote in favor of the establishment of a public, federal government run health insurance option are urged to forgo their right to participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP) and agree to enroll under that public option.

Fleming said that under both the House and Senate proposals, members of Congress won't have to participate in the government plan for at least five years and even after five years, enrollment will still be considered optional. Meanwhile, every other American will be forced to comply with government rules by obtaining "qualifying" plans.

Fleming told Fox News, "All these health care bills that are coming out on the Democrats' side the 'reform' bills basically say that Congress is exempt for at least the first five years, and perhaps longer," he said. "I've issued H. Res. 615 that simply says, look, if you vote for this, then you should choose it."

He continued, "We've reached out to every Democrat in the House, and we have yet to have a taker. They want it for every American except for members of Congress."

Fleming's bill has been referred to the House Committee on House Administration.

On July 16, Rep. Dean Heller, R.-Nev., offered a similar amendment to H.R. 3200 during the House Ways and Means Committee markup that would require members of Congress to enroll in its own government-run health care program. Democrats defeated the amendment by a vote of 21 to 18.

Concerned individuals may contact their respective senators and representatives.


http://www.wnd.co...eId=104716
 
Sinny
I specifically heard President Obama say it will be mandatory for everyone to have health care coverage but he didn't say it way mandatory for every one to have to pay for it out of pocket. I think the taxes that will help pay for the coverage will be gauged according to the salary of individuals and not the same for all income brackets much like the way it's done now anyway. Except I hope those making $100,000.00 and over will pay a hell of a lot more than I do. I don't even make over $50 or 60,000.00 a year. Shit I could never afford to pay what someone who makes more than I do pays.

Anyway I see a lot of fear monguering going on about what President Obama actuallys says and what he actually means [interpretations being scewed].

Here's more sites that put fear in people and are misinterpreted:





[urlhttp://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103946][/url]
[urlhttp://online.wsj.com/article/SB124579852347944191.html][/url]
[url]http://www.factcheck.org/politics/the_r ... sured.html[/url]
[url]http://www.businessword.com/index.php?/ ... ents/2640/[/url]


I've read them but they are starting to blend in my mind :uhuh:
Edited by Sinny on 08/01/2009 16:10
 
derF
What a crock. All U. S. Senators and congressmen have single pay health insurance and it is also provided to their immediate family as well. It is easily ascertained by visiting the General Accounting Office web site. It just proves what the for profit health care industry lobby will do to maintain the status quo. Lying, cheating and stealing are all options they will and have put to use.
I'll drink to that. Or anything else for that matter.
 
kjbluez
Sinny wrote:Anyway I see a lot of fear monguering going on about what President Obama actuallys says and what he actually means [interpretations being scewed].
I'm always disappointed at seeing how may people actually believe the propaganda they hear without checking into it. Even the other day, a person I know who I've always considered very intelligent was telling me about some aspects of the bill that to me sounded like propaganda, though I could not say because I had not read what he was talking about. He was pissed, though.

Afterwards, I read about what he was telling me, look at page x and page y of the bill, which I did, and found out he was spewing nothing more than propaganda. I asked him later if he had actually read the parts of the bill he was going on and on about, turns out he didn't, just believed what he had heard on some website.
 
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